Forcing the issue of Natural Born Citizenship: How to get standing to have the question resolved.

a reply to: MotherMayEye
Please read the post to which I replied.

When a person is born in one country where the nationality of the parents are of another country, the standard is the minor has dual citizenship until the age of 18, where he/she must decide what nationality they wish to keep.

Herein is a list of countries which disallow dual citizenship . Nineteen of them (Kenya is one of them). Does that comprise "the standard?"

www.henleyglobal.com...

a reply to: Phage

I did read it. But I did not get hung up on the word "standard."

I can see where that needed correcting...it is not unusual, but it also not the standard.

originally posted by: sdcigarpig
a reply to: MotherMayEye
If you go by the drafters and founding fathers, then Cruz is ineligible as his father was a citizen of first Cuba and then Canada at the time of his birth, and his mothers nationality would have no bearing on his actual status.

But laws and ideas change, the very notion and intentions can only be second guessed as to what they did or did not mean, along with how things are often viewed.

I tend to agree. And I also believe that the citizenship laws of other nations should be considered and respected when determining whether a person is a 'natural born Citizen' of the U.S.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
And I also believe that the citizenship laws of other nations should be considered and respected when determining whether a person is a 'natural born Citizen' of the U.S.

So you want another country to be able to control US law, and decide who is eligible to become US President!

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
And I also believe that the citizenship laws of other nations should be considered and respected when determining whether a person is a 'natural born Citizen' of the U.S.

So you want another country to be able to control US law, and decide who is eligible to become US President!

Yes. I think foreign citizenship has everything to do with POTUS eligibility/ineligibility.

I sure the eff do.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Yes. I think foreign citizenship has everything to do with POTUS eligibility/ineligibility.

I sure the eff do.

So a country unfriendly to the USA just has to declare everyone in the USA is also a citizen of their country, which would make no one in the USA eligible to become POTUS.

You never really thought that through, did you!

originally posted by: hellobruce

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
Yes. I think foreign citizenship has everything to do with POTUS eligibility/ineligibility.

I sure the eff do.

So a country unfriendly to the USA just has to declare everyone in the USA is also a citizen of their country, which would make no one in the USA eligible to become POTUS.

You never really thought that through, did you!

Don't be asinine. No other nation has jurisdiction over people not born in their nation or born to their citizens.

Wow. Talk about "silly."

originally posted by: MotherMayEye
No other nation has jurisdiction over people not born in their nation or born to their citizens.

Yet you want other nations to be able to override US laws!

" I also believe that the citizenship laws of other nations should be considered and respected when determining whether a person is a 'natural born Citizen' of the U.S. "

Talk about silly!

a reply to: hellobruce

Yet you want other nations to be able to override US laws!

[MotherMayEye]: " I also believe that the citizenship laws of other nations should be considered and respected when determining whether a person is a 'natural born Citizen' of the U.S. "

Talk about silly!

I'm not trying to speak for the OP, but I see her point, and our need to respect the laws and sovereignty of other nations, just as we would expect of them.

Imagine Panama gave McCain dual citizenship as a "natural born citizen" born on Panama soil -- regardless of how and why it happened... then imagine Panama passes a law requiring all able-bodied male citizens of a certain age to serve in their armed forces... and then demanded McCain so serve... Obviously, we would not force McCain to do so, no matter what their laws were.

Likewise, it would equally disrespectful and unacceptable for us to make such laws as well regarding the children of foreign citizens born on our soil -- for whatever reason.

It isn't about letting others decide our laws; it's a matter of respecting the laws and sovereignty of other nations and their citizens in crafting our own laws.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: MotherMayEye

What is a natural born citizen? The founding fathers addressed it when they grandfathered in the ability to hold the office of President by those who fought against the British since they started out as British citizens.

That tells me born to American parents inside the US.

The inclusion of the "grandfather" clause sans an exact definition of "Natural Born" is the best tell as to our founders intent regarding Presidential eligibility.

No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President

Right there in Article 2 is a distinction between a citizen and a natural born citizen by the founders.

I'd say the path to solving this modern dilemma of Presidential eligibility is to define the meaning of "natural born" not as we today define it through precedent but through the meaning of the term as our founders understood it. To do that one must use definitions existing prior to writing of the Constitution.

I'm not hung up much on "of the soil" as I am of two US citizen parents as a requirement to meet what is written in the Constitution.

Many are claiming just one US citizen parent is needed but using some logic that leads to situations of chaos that the founders would have recognized and never allowed into the Constitution.

Such as a known belligerent, (insert boogyman name) having child with a US citizen, waiting until child is 20 years, all the while influencing child, returning to US and living for 15 years upon which time that child becomes eligible for Presidency.

I can not ever envision a case where that was the intent at all.

I can envision many cases where everything works to a logical conclusion if and only if a child born to two American citizens is what is considered "Natural Born" and not creating logic bombs requiring twisting of meaning or language to work.

a reply to: Phage

A child born to US parents overseas is granted dual citizenship unless the country's laws prohibit it. US federal law requires US citizens traveling abroad to travel on a US passport.

Because the constitution does not grant citizenship to people born outside US territory Congress had to pass a federal law dealing with it. The US recognizes dual citizenship however, going back to federal law requiring US citizens to travel on US passports, it requires the person to choose which nationality they are going to use.

A child born to foreign parents in the US can be considered birthright citizens. Ted cruz was born in canada. He had to renounce allegiance to Canada.

originally posted by: Xcathdra
a reply to: Phage

A child born to US parents overseas is granted dual citizenship unless the country's laws prohibit it. US federal law requires US citizens traveling abroad to travel on a US passport.

Because the constitution does not grant citizenship to people born outside US territory Congress had to pass a federal law dealing with it. The US recognizes dual citizenship however, going back to federal law requiring US citizens to travel on US passports, it requires the person to choose which nationality they are going to use.

Because the constitution does not grant citizenship to people born outside US territory Congress had to pass a federal law dealing with it.

Seems that disputes most if not all claims on foreign born children being eligible for Presidency as it requires an act of congress or law to confer citizenship upon the individual rather than it being a "natural" condition of birth.

Am I reading and understanding that right?

a reply to: Xcathdra

Because the constitution does not grant citizenship to people born outside US territory Congress had to pass a federal law dealing with it.

Which federal law would that be?

The US recognizes dual citizenship however, going back to federal law requiring US citizens to travel on US passports, it requires the person to choose which nationality they are going to use.

Obviously, if you want to obtain a US passport you must be a US citizen. That does not mean you cannot have dual citizenship.

A child born to foreign parents in the US can be considered birthright citizens. Ted cruz was born in canada. He had to renounce allegiance to Canada.

No, he did not have to do so, he choose to do so. Both the US and Canada recognize dual citizenship.

a reply to: Phoenix

As I understand it yes. Congress passed laws dealing with citizenship, specifically:

By acts of Congress, every person born in Puerto Rico, the U.S. Virgin Islands, Guam, and the Northern Mariana Islands is a United States citizen by birth.Also, every person born in the former Panama Canal Zone whose father or mother (or both) are or were a citizen is a United States citizen by birth.

A person can be a US national while not being a US Citizen.

originally posted by: Phage
Which federal law would that be?

Comprehensive list:
8 U.S. Code Part I - Nationality at Birth and Collective Naturalization


* - Panama - 8 USC 1403
* - Puerto Rico - 8 USC 1402

originally posted by: PhageObviously, if you want to obtain a US passport you must be a US citizen. That does not mean you cannot have dual citizenship.

I never said it did.

originally posted by: Phage No, he did not have to do so, he choose to do so. Both the US and Canada recognize dual citizenship.

Since he was born in 1970 we need to look at the laws for that time period. Congress passed updated laws in the late 1970's.

With that said a lawsuit has already been filed to resolve the birth issue. Our debate will be settled when the courts decide on what natural born citizen means (we get this legal argument from the fact the constitution does not deal with US citizenship outside US territory).

What will be interesting in the case is the possible impact on Obama and his situation.

I never said it did.

Then what was your point?

Since he was born in 1970 we need to look at the laws for that time period. Congress passed updated laws in the late 1970's.

So now you're thinking he might not be a citizen at all?

Immigration Act of 1952
Sec. 301 (a) The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth;

(7) a person born outside the geographical limits of the United States and its outlying possessions of parents one of whom is an alien, and the other a citizen of the United States who, prior to the birth of such person, was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than five years, at least two of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years:
www.gpo.gov...

With that said a lawsuit has already been filed to resolve the birth issue.

Yeah, well. The Court is not required to hear it.

The findings of a Congressional Research Service analysis:

The weight of legal and historical authority indicates that the term “natural born” citizen would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship “by birth” or “at birth,” either by being born “in” the United States and under its jurisdiction, even those born to alien parents; by being born abroad to U.S. citizen-parents; or by being born in other situations meeting legal requirements for U.S. citizenship “at birth.”

fas.org...

a reply to: Phage

What was yours? You asserted the dual citizenship in my comment. I never said he cant have dual citizenship.

Secondly you have a bad habit of ignoring what people post. Please point out where I said he was not a US citizen? I said some of the laws dealing with this topic were added in the late 1970's. In this case Cruz was born in 1970. If you read immigration law you will see phrases such as:

If a person was born after and if a person was born before.

So in this instance the question revolves around the concept of a natural born citizen, which would allow him to run for president or naturalized which would prevent him running for president.

The Supreme court is not required to hear it. The federal courts under the Supreme court are required to hear it.

a reply to: Xcathdra

What was yours? You asserted the dual citizenship in my commented. I never said he cant have dual citizenship.

You started talking about the "standard" being a requirement to renounce dual citizenship. You then started talking about passports.

I said some of the laws dealing with this topic were added in the late 1970's. In this case Cruz was born in 1970.

Yes. I know what you said. I just couldn't understand what your point was in the context of this thread.

So in this instance the question revolves around the concept of a natural born citizen, which would allow him to run for president or naturalized which would prevent him running for president.

Ok. He is not a naturalized citizen. He was born a citizen according to the Immigration Act of 1952 (as well as much earlier stuff).

originally posted by: Phage
He is not a naturalized citizen. He was born a citizen according to the Immigration Act of 1952.

As there are only 2 types of citizens, if he is not a naturalised citizen he must be a natural born citizen!

a reply to: hellobruce
I agree with you.
And X. Cruz is eligible for the Presidency because he is not a naturalized citizen.

Not that it makes me particularly happy.