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Forcing the issue of Natural Born Citizenship: How to get standing to have the question resolved.

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posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 10:43 PM
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a reply to: Boadicea



If, as Obama claims, he was legally adopted by his stepfather in Indonesia,


The word 'if' is doing all the work here.

Obama does not claim he was adopted in Indonesia or anywhere else. It is a fact that it would not even have been possible for him to have been adopted under Indonesian law.

==> Law No. 62 of 1958, Law on the Citizenship of the Republic of Indonesia describes the laws for adopting children but none of them applied to Obama. To be eligible for adoption, children had to be under the age of five years old. Obama was 6 when he moved to Indonesia and thus ineligible.

Also it is a fact that it is (and was) legally impossible for Obama to be granted Indonesian citizenship.

==> The only pathway for that to have happened (under Indonesian law) was if Stanley Ann had made an official declaration that she wanted adopt the citizenship of her husband. In that case citizenship might also have been extended to Barack. Except that Indonesian law forbids her to take Indonesian citizenship if she has other nationality/citizenship. Since we know that she could never 'lose' her citizenship by some law process, and we know she didn't formally renounce it (because she continued to renew her passport), then we know that it couild not have happened.

Also it is a fact that it is (and was) legally impossible for Obama to have lost his American citizenship while in Indonesia.

==> To lose American citizenship, you have to make a personal declaration of renunciation at a Consulate and convince the consular authorities there that you understand the consequences of your act. A child of 10 (Obama was in Indonesia between the ages of 6 and 10) cannot do that - minors are not competent to make such declarations. No action by the parents can cause that to happen either.
edit on 18/1/2016 by rnaa because: fix typo




posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 10:46 PM
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a reply to: MajorAce




Although if his mother did file for Canadian citizenship at that time , Canada did not recognize dual cititzenship 1947 law.

Not relevant, unless she renounced her US citizenship. And the only way to prove that is by producing her signed oath.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 10:52 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye



It would be nice if the Hawaii Department of Health would verify the document for a requesting member of the public. If the record has already been made public, then there is no legitimate reason to keep the info private. Of course, since they haven't, it would make it difficult to trust them even if they did now.


NONSENSE.

Hawai'i Verification of Birth - official document provided to Ken Bennett, Arizona Secretary of State



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 10:55 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen




The question would be:

Is a foreign born adopted person a "natural born citizen".


The answer would be:

No.

A Birth Certificate ALWAYS lists the ACTUAL place of birth whether the child was adopted or not.



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 11:07 PM
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When a child is adopted, along with finalization papers, an amended birth certificate (ABC) is issued which can show any or all of the information on the original but replaces the birth parents’ names with those of the adoptive parents, and the child’s name given at birth with the new name (if this is being changed). This is given to the adoptive parents.

The original birth certificate is then placed with other adoption records and the file is sealed by the court. The original birth certificate is generally not available to the adopted person… ever.

The birth certificate that adoptees use throughout their lives – to enroll in school, to obtain drivers’ licenses, passports, and other documents, is the amended birth certificate.

Those searching hope that information birth parents have from the OBC and adoptees/adoptive families have from the ABC will help lead to reconnection.

Not All Birth Certificates Are Equal

Birth Certificates for Adoptees What you need to know about birth certificates



edit on Jan-18-2016 by xuenchen because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 11:17 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
When a child is adopted,


Except Obama was not adopted in Hawaii, as the records sent to the newspaper by the hospital show. He could not be adopted in Indonesia.
edit on 18-1-2016 by hellobruce because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 18 2016 @ 11:49 PM
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a reply to: hellobruce

Court orders can allow for newspaper birth notices for adoptive parents.




posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 12:02 AM
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a reply to: xuenchen

What on Earth is that supposed to mean?



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 12:09 AM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: hellobruce

Court orders can allow for newspaper birth notices for adoptive parents.


Well, what has that have to do with Obama or Cruz? Neither were adopted!



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 01:52 AM
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a reply to: xuenchen




Not All Birth Certificates Are Equal

Birth Certificates for Adoptees What you need to know about birth certificates


Either that article is simply wrong, or it is lying for some reason (I find that unlikely), or those states who change the birth location to that of the parents residence are breaking federal rules. As you will see from the below information, the article is simply wrong.

Be that as it may, Hawai'i does not do such a thing. State law explicitly requires the birth certificate to show the ACTUAL place of birth whether the child is adopted from overseas, in country, or not adopted. If an Hawai'i birth certificate says someone was born in Honolulu, that is where the birth took place.

Your article lists 3 examples of states (FL, GA, NC) that will change the location of birth to residence of adopted parents - this is wrong. Here is a summary of the actual law relating to this for those states:

The source for the following information is here:
Child Welfare Information Gateway: State Recognition of Intercountry Adoptions Finalized Abroad

Florida
Application for a U.S. Birth Certificate
Ann. Stat. § 382.017

The Department of Health will prepare a certificate of foreign birth for a foreign-born adopted person who is not a U.S. citizen and whose judgment of adoption was entered by a Florida court. The certificate will be established upon receipt of:
• The report or certified copy of the adoption decree
• Proof of the date and place of the adopted person’s birth
• A request that the certificate be prepared from the court, the adopting parents, or the adopted person if he or she is of legal age

The certificate shall be labeled ‘Certificate of Foreign Birth’ and will show the true country and date of birth of the adopted person and will state that it is not evidence of U.S. citizenship for the child.

After registering the certificate of foreign birth in the new name of the adopted person, the department will seal the adoption report or decree. The seal will not be broken except pursuant to a court order.


Georgia
Application for a U.S. Birth Certificate
Ann. Code § 31-10-13(f)

If a person was born in a foreign country, is not a citizen of the United States, and does not meet the requirements of the Federal Child Citizenship Act of 2000 (P.L. 106-395), but was adopted through a court in this State, the State Registrar shall prepare and register a birth certificate in this State. The certificate shall be established upon receipt of a report of adoption from the court decreeing the adoption and proof of the date and place of birth of the child. The certificate shall be labeled ‘Certificate of Foreign Birth’ and shall show the actual country of birth. A statement shall also be included on the certificate indicating that it is not evidence of U.S. citizenship for the person for whom it is issued.

North Carolina
Application for a U.S. Birth Certificate
Gen. Stat. §§ 130A-108(b); 48-9-107(a)

In the case of an adopted person born in a foreign country and residing in this State at the time of application, the State Registrar shall prepare a certificate of identification for the person upon the presentation of a certified copy of the original birth certificate from the country of birth and a certified copy of the final order of adoption.

In the case of an adopted person born in a foreign country and readopted in this State, the State Registrar shall prepare a certificate of identification for that person upon receipt of a report of that adoption from the Division of Social Services. The certificate shall contain the same information required by § 48-9-107(a) for persons adopted in this State, except the country of birth shall be specified in lieu of the State of birth.

The new certificate shall contain:
• The adopted person’s full adoptive name, sex, country, and date of birth
• The full name of the adoptive father, if applicable
• The full maiden name of the adoptive mother, if applicable
• Any other pertinent information consistent with this section as may be determined by the State Registrar

And for completeness, because the this silly contention is about Obama and how Hawai'i can change the birth location for adopted children:

Hawai'i
Application for a U.S. Birth Certificate
Rev. Stat. § 338-20.5

The Department of Health shall establish a Hawaii certificate of birth for a person born in a foreign country and for whom a final decree of adoption has been entered in a court of competent jurisdiction in Hawaii, when it receives the following:

• A properly certified copy of the adoption decree or certified abstract thereof on a form approved by the department
• A copy of any investigatory report and recommendation that may have been prepared by the Director of Social Services
• A report on a form approved by the Department of Health setting forth the following:
»» Date of the assumption of custody
» The sex, color, or race of the child
» The approximate age of the child
» The name and address of the adoptive parent(s)
» The name given to the child by the adoptive parent(s)
» The true or probable country of birth
» A request that a new certificate of birth be established
The true or probable country of birth shall be known as the place of birth, and the date of birth shall be determined by approximation. This report shall constitute an original certificate of birth.

After preparation of the new birth certificate in the new name of the adopted person, the Department of Health shall seal and file the certified copy of the adoptive decree, investigatory report, and recommendation of the Director of Human Services, if any; the report constituting the original certificate of birth; and the request for a new certificate of birth. The sealed documents may be opened by the department only by an order of a court of record or when requested in accordance with § 578-14.5 or 578-15.

The new certificate of birth shall show the true or probable foreign country of birth and that the certificate is not evidence of U.S. citizenship for the child for whom it is issued or for the adoptive parents.
edit on 19/1/2016 by rnaa because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 08:43 AM
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a reply to: rnaa

Laws were different in 1961.

Especially in Hawaii.




posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 01:49 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen



Laws were different in 1961. Especially in Hawaii.


Remarkably, you are 100% correct.

Hawai'i DID NOT ALLOW REGISTRATION of foreign born adopted children until 1979. At all. Period. Full Stop.



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 02:31 PM
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originally posted by: rnaa
a reply to: xuenchen



Laws were different in 1961. Especially in Hawaii.


Remarkably, you are 100% correct.

Hawai'i DID NOT ALLOW REGISTRATION of foreign born adopted children until 1979. At all. Period. Full Stop.



You can link a credible copy of that law right?

And the entire law that pertained in 1961 Hawaii?




posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:05 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: rnaa

Laws were different in 1961.

Especially in Hawaii.


Care to show us this 1961 law that was different?



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:41 PM
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originally posted by: rnaa
a reply to: xuenchen



Laws were different in 1961. Especially in Hawaii.


Remarkably, you are 100% correct.

Hawai'i DID NOT ALLOW REGISTRATION of foreign born adopted children until 1979. At all. Period. Full Stop.



I am not finding any law prohibiting the registration of foreign born adopted children before then. It appears that there was simply no distinction made between foreign/U.S. born children as far as adoption was concerned. Section 17 of the Hawaii Vital Records Regulations is probably the best source on how registering such children was handled and it all seems to have depended on the proof that was available of the child's birth circumstances.



edit on 19-1-2016 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:46 PM
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a reply to: hellobruce

here's part of some that were changed.

11-117 Hawaii




posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 03:52 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: hellobruce

here's part of some that were changed.

11-117 Hawaii





Exactly what I just referred to. It seems a foreign-born child would have been registered as indicated under Section 17 (which hasn't been repealed) and that is just a generic instruction for registering adopted children. However, specific regulations for foreign-born adopted children were created in 1981.

ETA: I corrected my previous comment to include the specific section.


edit on 19-1-2016 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

here's another page from Hawaii ....

this is a law newer than 1961 which clearly means the prior laws had loopholes.



The true or probable country of birth shall be known as the place of birth, and the date of birth shall be determined by approximation. This report shall constitute an original certificate of birth; and

(4) A request that a new certificate of birth be established.

(b) After preparation of the new certificate of birth in the new name of the adopted person, the department of health shall seal and file the certified copy of the adoptive decree, the investigatory report and recommendation of the director of human services if any, the report constituting the original certificate of birth, and the request for a new certificate of birth. The sealed documents may be opened by the department only by an order of a court of record or when requested in accordance with section 578-14.5 or 578-15. The new certificate of birth shall show the true or probable foreign country of birth, and that the certificate is not evidence of United States citizenship for the child for whom it is issued or for the adoptive parents. [L 1979, c 203, §3; am L 1990, c 338, §3]

§338-20.5 Adoption; foreign born persons






posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:09 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
a reply to: MotherMayEye

here's another page from Hawaii ....

this is a law newer than 1961 which clearly means the prior laws had loopholes.



The true or probable country of birth shall be known as the place of birth, and the date of birth shall be determined by approximation. This report shall constitute an original certificate of birth; and

(4) A request that a new certificate of birth be established.

(b) After preparation of the new certificate of birth in the new name of the adopted person, the department of health shall seal and file the certified copy of the adoptive decree, the investigatory report and recommendation of the director of human services if any, the report constituting the original certificate of birth, and the request for a new certificate of birth. The sealed documents may be opened by the department only by an order of a court of record or when requested in accordance with section 578-14.5 or 578-15. The new certificate of birth shall show the true or probable foreign country of birth, and that the certificate is not evidence of United States citizenship for the child for whom it is issued or for the adoptive parents. [L 1979, c 203, §3; am L 1990, c 338, §3]

§338-20.5 Adoption; foreign born persons







Yes, that is what I gathered, too. The laws on registering foreign-born adopted children were created in 1979. The new regulations signed into effect in 1981. Before then, registering foreign-born adopted children was handled no differently than one born in Hawaii or elsewhere in the U.S. If you had proof of place of birth it was handled a certain way, if not a "delayed certificate" was created before a "new birth certificate" was issued.

They tightened a loophole with the new statute. It was not prohibited to register foreign born adopted children before then.


edit on 19-1-2016 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 19 2016 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen

I sent you a PM....





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