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Cruz’s ‘Natural-Born Citizen’ Status Tested in Birther Suit

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posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 12:35 PM
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originally posted by: sdcigarpig
1) Was she a citizen of Canada at the time of his birth? According to the records, she was eligible to vote at that time frame.


Even if she was (which is highly questionable), she was still a US citizen. Source


Even if it were proven that Eleanor Cruz had become a Canadian citizen, she might well have remained an American citizen. In other words, she could have remained a dual citizen. If that were the case, a reasonable interpretation of the constitutional requirement would still find Cruz eligible to serve as President.



originally posted by: sdcigarpig
Those three questions will be a determining factor to determine if he is a natural born or a naturalized citizen of the United States of America.


Naturalization is a process with legal documentation to track it. No such documentation exists on Cruz. I say that, not because I know it, but because I have never seen anything to that affect. He did, however, renounce his Canadian citizenship a couple years ago.




posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 12:42 PM
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originally posted by: Benevolent Heretic
a reply to: xuenchen

As far as I know, there are only two classes of US citizenship. Born and Naturalized. Ted Cruz was a citizen of the US when he was born, therefore making him a natural born citizen.

Is there some third class of US citizen that no one's every heard about?


I've listened to 2 different constitutional scholars, (both quite reputable) comment on this question and both of them brought up previous SCOTUS rulings from the mid to late 1900s where the court, (in their own words) stated that there were two ways to become naturalized.

One was through the judicial process established for prospective citizens of foreign birth where neither parent holds U.S. citizenship.

And the other was by being "naturalized at birth," despite being born abroad and by virtue of one or both parents being U.S. citizens.

They both described the term "natural born" as originating and derived from England's common law and refers to being of the land and thereby, indisputable.

Personally, I have always felt like the term "natural born" meant actually born inside the territory of the United States and was not the same as being born abroad to U.S. citizens.

Furthermore, if this was settled law, why was there ever a birther movement to begin with?

There was never a question regarding Obama's mother's citizenship, so it wouldn't have mattered one bit if he was born in Kenya.

Based on what I'm seeing, for many if not most Republicans, the definition of being a "natural born citizen" changes depending on who's running for POTUS.

I don't think Ted Cruz can be POTUS, at least not until this issue is officially settled law.
edit on 15-1-2016 by Flatfish because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 12:47 PM
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If Cruz was a Natural born citizen then why give up his Dual citizenship to run for office. Obviously he thought it mattered enough to denounce a possible allegiance to another country to which he was born. Mean while Rubio is holding his breath.
Now think the 2nd , what did they really mean .

edit on 15-1-2016 by MajorAce because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 12:51 PM
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Haha ok wait


So he can be a LAW MAKER for the United States of America but he can't be president

This is the most ridiculous argument and I don't even like Cruz

Looks like Trumpeters are scared

Love love
AlienSupernova
edit on 15-1-2016 by AlienSupernova because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 12:54 PM
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originally posted by: Flatfish
Based on what I'm seeing, for many if not most Republicans, the definition of being a "natural born citizen" changes depending on who's running for POTUS.


Agreed. Great post, by the way. The reason there was a birther movement about Obama was because they simply used everything they could think of to make him not eligible.



I don't think Ted Cruz can be POTUS, at least not until this issue is officially settled law.


I think it would be best if it was ruled on, and it probably will be. I just don't think it's necessary. But from what you say, there IS possibly a third class of citizen, and that would be "naturalized by birth". Interesting...



Blackstone used “naturalized” to mean “made a citizen by statute,” whether at birth or otherwise. For example, he referred to the statute making subjects of some children born abroad as an act “for naturalizing the children of English parents born abroad.” That use carried over into the U.S. in the 1790 Act, which is called an act of naturalization (passed under Congress’ power to provide a uniform rule of naturalization), and continued at least at far forward as the Fourteenth Amendment – which says there are two ways to be a citizen: born in the U.S. or naturalized. So the question isn’t whether Ted Cruz is naturalized. He is – from birth, by statute. The question is whether someone naturalized at birth by statute is a natural born citizen. . . . Blackstone thought children naturalized at birth “are” natural born subjects, whereas people naturalized later had most but not all the rights of the natural born (including those naturalized at birth by statute). And notably, the principal rights those naturalized later did not have (but those naturalized at birth did have) were eligibility to certain high offices. - See more at: www.libertylawsite.org...



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 01:01 PM
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originally posted by: AlienSupernova
Haha ok wait


So he can be a LAW MAKER for the United States of America but he can't be president



Yes.

Crazy isn't it.

I don't think there's any laws that prevent any non-citizen from holding offices other than President and maybe VP.




posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 01:11 PM
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I actually ran across this several days ago, but had not read it until now because of this thread.
I will include it mainly because I do not remember the URL of its origin and to make it easier for everyone interested to find it.
I am of the opinion that Cruz is not eligible, but I will let others decide for themselves.


Ted Cruz Citizenship Timeline
March 26, 2015 at 5:04pm
Cruz Citizenship Timeline (documented)

State of Delaware Vital Records says, no record of Eleanor Elizabeth Darragh Wilson birth exist. Ted Cruz's mother does not have a US birth certificate.

FACTUAL CRUZ CITIZENSHIP TIMELINE
(Everything presented in this timeline is a matter of public record. All of it is based upon publicly reported events, public statements made by Rafael Cruz, Ted Cruz, officials with the Elect Ted movement or US and Canadian officials."

1957 - After working as a teen to help Fidel Castro gain power in Cuba, and being imprisoned for his actions by the Batista regime, Cuban Rafael Cruz applies for admittance to the University of Te'as as a foreign student and enters the US on a four year student visa to attend four years of college. He is a Cuban citizen attending a US college on a foreign student visa obtained through the US Consulate in Havana.

1961-1962 - After graduating college at the University of Texas, and upon the expiration of his foreign student visa, Cruz Sr. applied for and received "political asylum" and was issued a "green card." A green card is a permit to reside and work in the United States, without becoming a "citizen" of the United States, in this case, under political asylum from Castro's Cuba. His citizenship status was that of a Cuban national living and working in the United States, under a green card work permit. According to US laws, the "green card" holder must maintain permanent resident status, and can be removed from the United States if certain conditions of this status are not met.

1964-1966 - Cruz Sr. takes a few odd jobs, marries and moves to Canada to work in the oil fields. The Cruz family resides in Canada for the next eight years. “I worked in Canada for eight years,” Rafael Cruz says. “And while I was in Canada, I became a Canadian citizen.” – (From and interview with NPR) "Peter Spiro, a legal expert on US citizenship at Temple University. Spiro says Rafael Cruz's multi-country odyssey did not follow traditional models for immigration. SPIRO - “Ted Cruz himself seems to be an advocate of those traditional immigration models. Maybe he should be a little more tolerant of the nontraditional Versions, given his own father's history.”

1970 - Ted Cruz is born in Canada, to two parents who had lived in Canada for at least four years at that time, and had applied for and received Canadian citizenship under Canadian Immigration and Naturalization Laws, as stated by Rafael Cruz. As a result, US statutes would have voided the prior "green card" status which requires among other things, permanent residency within the United States and obviously, not becoming a citizen of another country during the time frame of the US green card.

1974 - The Cruz family moves to the United States when Ted is approximately four years old. Rafael Cruz has publicly stated that he remained a citizen of Canada until he renounced his Canadian citizenship when he applied for and became a US Naturalized citizen in 2005. As a result, his wife and son were also Canadian citizens, his son being born a citizen of Canada in 1970.

2005 - Rafael Cruz applies for legal US citizenship and renounces his Canadian citizenship. No record of Ted renouncing his Canadian citizenship or applying for US citizenship exists as of 2005.

2013 - Freshman Senator Ted Cruz is a rising star in the Tea Party movement, and calls for him to run for the White House begin. In July, Ted Cruz is Questioned by the press about his interest in running for President, and the issue of his Canadian born citizenship is brought up Sen. Ted Cruz rejected questions Sunday over his eligibility to be president, saying that although he was born in Canada “the facts are clear” that he is a US citizen.
“My mother was born in Wilmington, Delaware. She is a US. citizen, so I'm a US citizen by birth,” Cruz told A&C. “I'm not going to engage in a legal debate.”

NOTE: Senator Cruz omits the part of his father's story, in particular, the part about his parents applying for and receiving Canadian citizenship prior to Ted's birth in Calgary. He also attempts to gloss past the actual definition of natural)born Citizen by implying it is a mere legal debate for others to figure out.

August 2013 - As Ted's political stock rises in the Tea Party, so do press questions about his eligibility for office. Ted decides to quiet the questions by releasing his birth certificate, which now becomes absolute proof of Ted's Canadian citizenship at birth, 1970, Calgary, Canada. The release of the Canadian birth records only serve to further fuel the controversy.

Ted seeks Legal Counsel, as the media is now pressing members of Canadian Immigration and Naturalization to clear the matter up, when instead, Canadian officials confirm the Ted Cruz was in fact born a legal citizen of Canada, the son of two parents who had also applied for and received Canadian citizenship prior to Ted's birth.

“He's a Canadian,” said Toronto lawyer Stephen Green, past chairman of the Canadian Bar Association's Citizenship and Immigration Section.
“Generally speaking, under the Citizenship Act of 1947, those born in Canada were automatically citizens at birth unless their parent was a foreign diplomat, ”said ministry spokeswoman Julie Lafortune.

Legal counsel advises Ted to "renounce his Canadian citizenship" in order to make himself eligible to run for the presidency. Of course, renouncing one's original citizenship only further proves one's original citizenship.

May 2014 - Ted Cruz legal counsel files to renounce Ted's Canadian citizenship in an effort to make him eligible to run for high office under the natural born Citizen clause Article II in the US Constitution.

AUSTIN, Texas - Canada-born US Sen. Ted Cruz has given up his citizenship from his birth country, making good on a promise from last summer. spokeswoman Catherine Frazier said “the Tea Party favorite formally gave up his citizenship May 14th. He received official confirmation of the action at his Houston home Tuesday.”

News that he had renounced his citizenship was first reported by the Dallas Morning News. The newspaper also bro$e that Cruz had dual Canadian) US citizenship when he released his birth certificate in August.

Frazier said Cruz “he is pleased to have the process finalized” and that it “makes sense he should be only an American citizen.”- of course, the Constitution does not require that one be only an American citizen, but rather a natural born Citizen.

As of February 4, 2015 - No evidence of any US Citizenship has been released to confirm anything at all about the true citizenship status of Ted Cruz.

Because Ted Cruz has been confirmed a legal citizen of Canada up until renouncing his Canadian citizenship in May of 2014, and because he has been confirmed a citizen of Canada at birth, and because his father is on public record stating that he and his wife became citizens of Canada during their eight years living in Canada and because Rafael Cruz remained a citizen of Canada until he renounced and applied for legal US citizenship in 2005. There is simply NO WAY that Ted Cruz was, is or ever can be a Natural Born Citizen of the United States eligible for the offices of President or Vice President.

So, does this mean that members of the Tea Party are engaged in an overt effort to defraud Tea Party members who are Ted fans, by all of this legal fancy foot work.

The facts are all well documented. You decide...

One who inherits their Citizenship at birth via nature alone, from their natural birth father, is a natural born Citizen of the United States. According to all available information on Ted Cruz and his family, Ted Cruz was a native born citizen of Canada and not a natural born Citizen of the United States. Now, Ted is either not too bright, or not too honest... But he is at least one of the two... and what about the Tea Party leaders behind this legal shell game?



Actually, the first line here would seem to raise more questions within this discussion than it answersSo let me repeat:

State of Delaware vital records says, no record of Eleanor Elizabeth Darragh Wilson Cruz exist. Ted Cruz's mother does not have a US birth certificate.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: tinymind

Actually, the first line here would seem to raise more questions within this discussion than it answersSo let me repeat:

State of Delaware vital records says, no record of Eleanor Elizabeth Darragh Wilson Cruz exist. Ted Cruz's mother does not have a US birth certificate.


It is curious that one has been presented for her.

My OPINION: All personal records pertaining to presidential candidates need to be made public. Nothing should be off-limits, IMO, not even medical records. If you are vying for the most powerful position in the nation, then your life needs to be an open book. I don't think that's too much to ask and I don't believe any candidate is a victim to such questions.

The public's interest is superior to a candidate's privacy.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 02:58 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye


I am pretty certain the fact that this question exists without an answer from the courts is evidence that no one can be certain who is right or wrong, at this point.


That^^^ right there is the only true and conclusive statement anyone can make about the natural born citizen eligibility issue. Thank you.

Not one eligibility lawsuit brought against any major political candidate by a citizen has resulted in a hearing -- much less a ruling -- according to the evidence and merits of the case. (At least to the best of my knowledge) No one today can definitively declare exactly what a natural born citizen is.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: tinymind

But But But



Eleanor Darragh, mother of Sen. Ted Cruz (R-TX), was born in Delaware on Nov. 23, 1934, establishing her citizenship by birth–and, according to U.S. law, that of her son, even though he was born in Calgary, Alberta, Canada, on Dec. 22, 1970.


Exclusive: Birth Certificate for Ted Cruz’s Mother

and..Ted's birth certificate


www.abovetopsecret.com...





posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 03:40 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen


Ok here we go.

Looks like Trump was right to tell Cruz to get his birther issue resolved before somebody else tries.

A Houston lawyer has filed a lawsuit go get it straight.


I'm a little surprised at how this is playing out in the press and political arena... but I shouldn't be.

As I understand it -- and please correct me if I'm wrong! -- Trump only brought the eligibility issue up again because a lawsuit challenging Cruz' eligibility was filed in Vermont (along with Rubio and Jindal), and he made the point that if this wasn't resolved, the Democrats would use it as a campaign issue. But Trump wasn't challenging Cruz' eligibility himself.

Breaking: VT Judge may have to toss Cruz, Rubio & Jindal off of state's ballot

I'm also surprised at how many on ATS (but not in the media) are outright ignoring the questions raised about Mrs. Cruz' citizenship status at the time of his birth, which has been raised by Rep Alan Grayson (D-Fl). If she applied for and accepted Canadian citizenship before Ted's birth, then she could not pass on her American citizenship!

Alan Grayson Explains Why He'll Sue Ted Cruz Over Presidential Eligibility

And just for the record, it would seem that Trump was right about Democrats piling on the eligibility bandwagon:

Trump's claim that Dems would challenge Cruz's eligibility on firm ground

One way or another, this issue needs to be clarified and resolved.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 03:48 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: MotherMayEye




I am pretty certain the fact that this question exists without an answer from the courts is evidence that no one can be certain who is right or wrong, at this point.




That^^^ right there is the only true and conclusive statement anyone can make about the natural born citizen eligibility issue. Thank you.



Not one eligibility lawsuit brought against any major political candidate by a citizen has resulted in a hearing -- much less a ruling -- according to the evidence and merits of the case. (At least to the best of my knowledge) No one today can definitively declare exactly what a natural born citizen is.


I just took a wild stab at "googleing" the term "natural born citizen". I then went down to where it spoke of the decisions of the Supreme Court. While it is tru the court has not handed down a decision which states specifically about the term, it should be noted of the ties this term has been involved with cases and the deciosions which were made on those cases.
I have here quoted the conclusion of the writer of the parts which I read and included a URL to which those interested can read further.


www.thepostemail.com...





Finally it should be noted, that to define a term is to indicate the category or class of things which it signifies. In this sense, the Supreme Court of the United States has never applied the term “natural born citizen” to any other category than “those born in the country of parents who are citizens thereof”.
Hence every U.S. Citizen must accept this definition or categorical designation, and fulfil his constitutional duties accordingly. No member of Congress, no judge of the Federal Judiciary, no elected or appointed official in Federal or State government has the right to use any other definition; and if he does, he is acting unlawfully, because unconstitutionally.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 03:51 PM
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originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: xuenchen

As I understand it -- and please correct me if I'm wrong! -- Trump only brought the eligibility issue up again because a lawsuit challenging Cruz' eligibility was filed in Vermont (along with Rubio and Jindal), and he made the point that if this wasn't resolved, the Democrats would use it as a campaign issue. But Trump wasn't challenging Cruz' eligibility himself.


That's pretty much it.

Loads of controlled "mis-interpreatations" all over the place.




posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 04:21 PM
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a reply to: tinymind


While it is tru the court has not handed down a decision which states specifically about the term, it should be noted of the ties this term has been involved with cases and the deciosions which were made on those cases.


This is true. I don't argue that. But while those decisions are relevant, they are not conclusive. There is much to consider, from many angles.

For the founding fathers' original intent, we would have to look at contemporary sources which defined the term "natural born citizen," such as Blackstone as Vattel; even then, keeping in mind that they were actually considering "subjects" as opposed to "citizens." We would also look at their own efforts in Congress to define the term, such as the Naturalization Acts of 1790 and 1795. And, of course, we would also have to consider the legal and social mores of the day, which basically treated women like chattel -- first of their father, then of their husband. So according to those standards, Mrs. Cruz would have automatically assumed her husband's citizenship, making her a Canadian citizen at the time of Ted's birth.

But the bottom line is that until the Supreme Court of the land says it's so, it's all just opinion.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 04:30 PM
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originally posted by: tinymind
NOTE: Senator Cruz omits the part of his father's story, in particular, the part about his parents applying for and receiving Canadian citizenship prior to Ted's birth in Calgary. He also attempts to gloss past the actual definition of natural)born Citizen by implying it is a mere legal debate for others to figure out.

This is incorrect. Rafael Cruz Sr. obtained his Canadian citizenship in 1973.

Mr. Cruz Sr. was a Cuban when Ted was born in 1970.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 04:31 PM
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originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

originally posted by: WeRpeons
Considering Cruz was always questioning Obama's birth status, I guess this is a perfect example of what comes around goes around.


Please site your source on this

Some quotes of Cruz questioning Obamas eligibility are needed if you are going to make this accusation




I'd love to find another source but this is pretty damning for Ted Cruz if interview can be verified by a second source as it shows Ted Cruz well understood what an NBC is back in 2012 in his own words, and shows he is not an originalist when the issue directly affects him.

source


Interviewer: “Hello Mr. Cruz, it's a pleasure to meet you. My name is (redacted). I am a (redacted) County GOP Precinct Chair and you have my support and vote. I have one question for you if I may?

”Cruz: “Sure, go ahead.”

Interviewer: “What is your understanding of how one becomes a natural born Citizen?”

Cruz: “Two citizen parents and born on the soil.”

Interviewer: “Not exactly, but as I don't have enough time to fully explain how one does become an natural born Citizen, based on your understanding, would you agree that Barack Obama is ineligible to be POTUS?”

Cruz: “I would agree."



IMHO Ted had it right back in 2012!

I was a Cruz supporter until Trump entered the race and can say I like his politics but no way I'm in support of usurping Constitution so he can run.

An interesting note is that without a CRBA Cruz may not even be eligible for his Senate seat which requires one to be a "citizen" to hold office.

This certainly is another big can of worms as it leads to Rubio and Obama. Notice how fast Rubio changed subject last night!



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 04:44 PM
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Sorry
edit on 15-1-2016 by yesyesyes because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 04:46 PM
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originally posted by: Phoenix

originally posted by: ManBehindTheMask

originally posted by: WeRpeons
Considering Cruz was always questioning Obama's birth status, I guess this is a perfect example of what comes around goes around.


Please site your source on this

Some quotes of Cruz questioning Obamas eligibility are needed if you are going to make this accusation




I'd love to find another source but this is pretty damning for Ted Cruz if interview can be verified by a second source as it shows Ted Cruz well understood what an NBC is back in 2012 in his own words, and shows he is not an originalist when the issue directly affects him.

source


Interviewer: “Hello Mr. Cruz, it's a pleasure to meet you. My name is (redacted). I am a (redacted) County GOP Precinct Chair and you have my support and vote. I have one question for you if I may?

”Cruz: “Sure, go ahead.”

Interviewer: “What is your understanding of how one becomes a natural born Citizen?”

Cruz: “Two citizen parents and born on the soil.”

Interviewer: “Not exactly, but as I don't have enough time to fully explain how one does become an natural born Citizen, based on your understanding, would you agree that Barack Obama is ineligible to be POTUS?”

Cruz: “I would agree."



IMHO Ted had it right back in 2012!

I was a Cruz supporter until Trump entered the race and can say I like his politics but no way I'm in support of usurping Constitution so he can run.

An interesting note is that without a CRBA Cruz may not even be eligible for his Senate seat which requires one to be a "citizen" to hold office.

This certainly is another big can of worms as it leads to Rubio and Obama. Notice how fast Rubio changed subject last night!





I think it is clear, Ted said it himself.

He is in even worse shape if we take his beliefs into account.

Trump is right, Ted is a Canadian immigrant, but a citizen so he should not be deported or placed on the other side of the wall, unfortunately



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 04:48 PM
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originally posted by: peck420

originally posted by: tinymind
NOTE: Senator Cruz omits the part of his father's story, in particular, the part about his parents applying for and receiving Canadian citizenship prior to Ted's birth in Calgary. He also attempts to gloss past the actual definition of natural)born Citizen by implying it is a mere legal debate for others to figure out.

This is incorrect. Rafael Cruz Sr. obtained his Canadian citizenship in 1973.

Mr. Cruz Sr. was a Cuban when Ted was born in 1970.


A Canadian Cuban President of The United States of America does not sound right.



posted on Jan, 15 2016 @ 04:59 PM
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a reply to: yesyesyes

What *IF* Cruz is a Cuban born orphan?

Adoption records get sealed when the courts order birth certificates entered into the permanent record.

How does that scenario play into the "Natural" born issues?

Hmmmm.




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