The real reason the government wants a 15 dollar minimum wage

I think the premise of this thread is far off the mark, and does a piss poor job of examining political motive. Government is comprised of people who generally represent the population and many in the population (tens of millions) believe that America is suffering from a detrimental wealth inequality.

The premise of this thread imagines that the government is an entity that is motivated by acquiring money, just like a person would be. However, the truth is, the government is a cumulative chaotic mess of hundreds of thousands of people
trying to enact policy and do a million other things.

The real motive for increasing minimum wage is much more basic, many of us think this country will be more prosperous if the workforce has more income to contribute and spend in the economy.

all i see with an increase to the minimum wage, is a bump in inflation as the cost of those goods and services produced by those workers increases to cover the added expense. since their extra money will only buy them the same amount of goods or services the real hit will be seen by people who make just above that amount right now cause u can be sure that most employers if any will not increase those workers wages since its not mandated. thus it knocks the middle class down essentially and props up the elite even further.

originally posted by: onequestion
The actual reason is because cost of living has far surpassed income.

The other reason is because 74 million people who work full time make less than 15$ an hour.

If you haven't been paying attention gas prices are dropping because of global consumption being down.

Down because no one can afford anything.

Let's see how long we can pretend that we don't need a new economic system that incorporate more of humanity instead of less.

When only 1% of the worlds population can really experience all that life has to give meanwhile everyone else around then lives in poverty then we have a problem.

Fantasy land yay! I love fantasy land!

Gee, that explains why gas was so high during the recession!

SMH, that theory is completely wrong

www.nytimes.com...

Oil (gas) is down for the simple fact that they overproduced. Demand is still as high as ever.

originally posted by: TheScale
all i see with an increase to the minimum wage, is a bump in inflation as the cost of those goods and services produced by those workers increases to cover the added expense. since their extra money will only buy them the same amount of goods or services the real hit will be seen by people who make just above that amount right now cause u can be sure that most employers if any will not increase those workers wages since its not mandated. thus it knocks the middle class down essentially and props up the elite even further.

The price of a product isn't based 100% on the cost of labor, there's also the cost of raw materials, and there's static barrier to entry costs such as education or land. If you look at most businesses, labor makes up 30%-50% of their operating expenses (someone more versed in business than me can give you a more definite percentage). Assuming a worst case scenario where all of your employees are on minimum wage, doubling that wage puts their income at 200% but it only makes your costs go up 130%.

For those on the bottom, an increase in the minimum wage is a very good thing. The people who get hit hardest are those in the low-mid income bracket. Minimum wage increases involve shrinking the wealth gap but people who are right around the median income range will see themselves slide down as the gap shrinks.

You can't have it both ways, low income inequality cannot coexist with a wealthy class where valuable work is disproportionately rewarded. Instead everyone gets pushed closer to the middle.

a reply to: matafuchs

"765 BILLION dollars" is not much at all considering that the Federal Government estimates show that it spends about 600 BILLION dollars on the Defense budget each year. So yeah I can see this easily having part in increasing the take home for the Federal government in taxes. That is obvious. $15 an hour will not really increase the quality of living for most people who get it anyways. Which is the really sad part. But something has to give to get things going in the right direction. I wish I was smart enough to know what that was.

originally posted by: JIMC5499
a reply to: ScepticScot

The rule of common sense. A company is in business to make a profit. The selling price of their product includes all of the costs incurred in making that product plus the profit. If any of the costs of making that product increase, the selling price must also increase.

So not a rule of economics at all, just something you believe.

You stated 'A rule of economics states that all costs are borne by the Consumer. So an increase in the Minimum Wage to $15 per hour would raise the cost of living proportionally resulting in no gain in buying power. This would leave us right back where we started from.'

This would only be true if all costs were staff (can't think of many products that is the case) and takes no account of relationship between fixed/variable costs or marginal cost of the product.

A increased minimum wage can and indeed does have an inflationary impact but it it is not uniform across all products and services and not directly proportional to the rise in minimum wage. The end result would not be back where we started from.

a reply to: AmericanRealist


Ummm...yeah...but we're only plugged into the collective philosophically at this point...Just wait until those shiny new replacement bodies start coming online in the next 30 to 50 years...then we get to plug into the collective in a much more personal and fulfilling way...

I felt a hand rustle my nonexistent hair as a more sensed than heard staccato voice crooned...Good little worker bee...




YouSir

originally posted by: onequestion
The actual reason is because cost of living has far surpassed income.

The other reason is because 74 million people who work full time make less than 15$ an hour.

If you haven't been paying attention gas prices are dropping because of global consumption being down.

Down because no one can afford anything.

Let's see how long we can pretend that we don't need a new economic system that incorporate more of humanity instead of less.

When only 1% of the worlds population can really experience all that life has to give meanwhile everyone else around then lives in poverty then we have a problem.

Fantasy land yay! I love fantasy land!

This is what I have been saying for years, there is no way that the current economic system that we exist in and feed can continue at its current rate, I applaud you sir on the quote that I have highlighted. It annoys me as I dont feel like there is anything I can do, other than start a militia or go into politics. Hmmm, arent they the same?

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JIMC5499
a reply to: ScepticScot

The rule of common sense. A company is in business to make a profit. The selling price of their product includes all of the costs incurred in making that product plus the profit. If any of the costs of making that product increase, the selling price must also increase.

So not a rule of economics at all, just something you believe.

You stated 'A rule of economics states that all costs are borne by the Consumer. So an increase in the Minimum Wage to $15 per hour would raise the cost of living proportionally resulting in no gain in buying power. This would leave us right back where we started from.'

This would only be true if all costs were staff (can't think of many products that is the case) and takes no account of relationship between fixed/variable costs or marginal cost of the product.

A increased minimum wage can and indeed does have an inflationary impact but it it is not uniform across all products and services and not directly proportional to the rise in minimum wage. The end result would not be back where we started from.

Everyone's costs goes up so prices follow. For example, if you raise minimum wage to $15/hr, not only does an employee at said company now cost more, the suppliers of all the ancillary services that the company purchases to operate their business will also see price increases.

Logically, if everyone is increasing their prices, raising the minimum wage does nothing to help the poor because all of the additional money they earn is just purchasing higher costs goods. We are right back where we started. A class of people with minimal skills making the minimum wage.

What most of you can't seem to understand is that the vast majority of workers do not stay at minimum wage for any significant length of time. It is an entry point, not a career. So a worker may start off making the minimum, but as their skills increase, their wages increase as well.

Raising the minimum wage makes it tougher for those who are looking for an opportunity to get into the work force.

The only thing I agree on is that there is a class of people who are so hopelessly uneducated and lacking of useful skills that they are stuck in these dead end jobs. These jobs were not intended to support a family nor be a career. Unfortunately, we have too many people trying to do just that with these jobs. The answer though is not artificially increasing the wages of jobs above their free market value.

a reply to: Edumakated

Yes increases to a minimum wage raise costs, but unless labour costs are 100% of cost (either directly or indirectly) then it does follow that a price rise is proportional to the rise in labour cost. If prices do go up (which is still an if) and it is not directly proportional (which it wouldn't be for most goods) then part of the real cost of the increase is absorbed by higher earners. In this way a rise in minimum wage is basically redistributive, you can consider this a good or a bad thing as you like. All I am saying is that a minimum wage increase does have a beneficial impact on those that earn it.

I would partially agree with your statement that a minimum wage makes it tougher for people to get into the workforce (my caveat would be 'can' rather than 'does') . I would argue that a job guarantee program is a better option to set a an effective minimum wage for most jobs.

a reply to: matafuchsueah a 15 dollar sounds like a good thing but i have worked my job for 15 years so someone with no experience going to make a dollar less than me u sat no if goverment wants to make money to spend then i say put a 5 cent a dollar sales tax that would payoff the budget in one year and give the goverment the money to have free universal healthcare. if companies didn't have to provide health care then they could afford to pay more

a reply to: onequestion

Sorry to say, but you neglected to consider the most important fact. The US government never does anything that doesn't benefit the US government. Sometimes, what they do to increase their power and control happens to "appear" to put more money in the hands of the people, or appears to make the people healthier, etc. But it ALWAYS benefits the government first and primarily.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: JIMC5499
WAKE UP!!!


One last thing. A rule of economics states that all costs are borne by the Consumer. So an increase in the Minimum Wage to $15 per hour would raise the cost of living proportionally resulting in no gain in buying power. This would leave us right back where we started from.

What rule of economics is this?

Guy, just think about this one for a minute. It is a no brainer, wouldn't you think? You really think corporations don't pass all imposed taxes and levies on to the consumer? Wake up dude!

a reply to: matafuchs
I just breezed through the article you linked as the source of your title but didn't actually see any indication that the article actually stated the government is pushing for a $15 minimum wage. In actuality , I even suggest that the government absolutely opposes what you suggest. Think about this wage situation as just one piece of a much larger puzzle. Think global over population and the destruction of our global environment. Think Agenda21! I'm sure you are aware of the turmoil surrounding Planned Parenthood and advocates determined to shut them down by exempting this organization from any further public tax funding, are you not? The federal government will never cut funding for that project because it is just one tool in TPTB's toolbox to limit any further population expansion. Now, combining their efforts to limit any further expansion through modern reproductive birth control advancements with the objective of keeping the majority of the population in a state of abject poverty they are rendering them incapable of maintaining an economic ability of sustaining a traditional family lifestyle, Agenda 21 is working as planned.

originally posted by: jitombe
a reply to: matafuchs

Interesting way to look at it, from a govt getting more $ in taxes point of view. I'm still very much against minimum wage going up to $15/hr. Main reason is that pay is supposed to be based on the scope and complexity of your work. Flipping burgers, mopping floors, being a cashier, etc. is not a $15/hr job. Min wage jobs are for high school kids, college students, retirees, people looking to make a few extra dollars and that's more or less it. For the supposed 74 million people who work for less than $15/hr, that is a separate & pathetic topic in itself.

Not forgetting that if it went up to 15 dollars an hour, then employers would sack a few to keep the wage bill the same, and make the employed ones take up the slack.

People forget that minimum wage was introduced as a LIVING WAGE. Back then, you could afford a car, a house, education, groceries, utilities for a family of 4 with a single breadwinner. It doesn't matter what the job is. No one's time is more valuable than anyone else's. It's the universal currency. If you want to dispute raising the minimum wage, you'll need to address the above facts first.

Now, putting that money in consumers hands means it gets spent. Spending money on goods and services is what makes the economy thrive. We've seen what trickle down can do and it's a disaster. There are all kinds of other options to make the economy work better, but raising the minimum wage is the easiest and most immediately rewarding, not just for families, but for the economy.

When the minimum wage is raised, the wages close to it ALSO rise. If you're one of those people, that say that you didn't go to school so some uneducated worker could make almost as much as you, then you need to look at yourself and try to reconcile how someone making an income close to you has ANY effect on you. If you're going to school to learn how to do something, it should be because you WANT to do it and not just for the wages.

And finally, if you're a business owner that is paying your employees so low that they have to go on some form of assistance, then you're helping yourself at the cost of others. Maybe your business should raise prices. Maybe you shouldn't be in business if you can't run a business without starving your employees. Maybe you weren't meant to be in business if you can't make a profit. People wonder why Americans don't buy local anymore. One of the reasons is because they don't make enough to do that. I don't mind paying a bit more as long as I know that the business is run ethically and not with undue pressure on the backs of their employees.

originally posted by: onequestion
The actual reason is because cost of living has far surpassed income.

The other reason is because 74 million people who work full time make less than 15$ an hour.

If you haven't been paying attention gas prices are dropping because of global consumption being down.

Down because no one can afford anything.

Let's see how long we can pretend that we don't need a new economic system that incorporate more of humanity instead of less.

When only 1% of the worlds population can really experience all that life has to give meanwhile everyone else around then lives in poverty then we have a problem.

Fantasy land yay! I love fantasy land!

If you pay $12,000/yr in rent this $12,000 is after-tax money.
You have to earn $20,000 to net the $12,000.

If owning a car is costing you $7000/yr this $7000 is after-tax money.
To net $7000 you have to earn $11,667.

The same reasoning applies to expenditures for food, clothing, entertainment and everything else.

a reply to: Aazadan

i get what your saying but even the costs of materials will go up , maybe not in direct proportion with the raised wages but even those industries employ min wage workers. i dont see how it does anything to the elite at the top end though. the wage increase or inflation will have practically zero impact on them so yeah like u said it moves all those people in the middle closer together.

Right now a family making 100k can still be a paycheck away from homelessness.

Well unless they're having to spend their entire income just to get by, a mere 10% saving per year, and they could outright buy a house in full cash in some parts of the country after just a few years. That is they'd have a fully paid house somewhere else that they can either rent or live in during an emergency.

Also that location with the cheaper house, likely has a much lower cost of living, so they could easily live off of coupons stamps if need be.

Min wage jobs are for high school kids, college students, retirees, people looking to make a few extra dollars and that's more or less it. For the supposed 74 million people who work for less than $15/hr, that is a separate & pathetic topic in itself.

The reality is that there are many overqualified people working at jobs that pay them way less, why because there aren't enough high paying jobs available.

Besides the reality of statistics regarding intelligence of a population, not all have the capacity to get through the years of academic work required for the highest earning degrees, even if they did have the capacity all that would result is in a glut of superqualified personnel causing those previously high earning careers to become low earning through sheer competition.

How many CEOs does say mcdonald need? How many burger flippers does it need? See the picture? Even if the burger flippers had multiple Ph.d's, and on top of that a background of previously being super successful CEOs, there simply aren't enough CEO jobs for them all. It is a pyramid, in general the better a job pays the rarer it is(as can clearly be seen in the corporate world.).

People that 30 years ago who would find good work in a factory that would support them are now stuck in retail and service industry jobs, and even those are starting to go.

Well decades ago a single working man with a highschool degree could buy his large suburbia house, have a stay at home wife, have a couple of kids. Have a car, save for retirement, go on vacation, etc.

Now that is no longer the case, a couple with multiple Ph.d's, may have to both work and struggle to have a single kid in a small apartment.

It is starting to show a real sign and fracture, yet in many of those cases, they can't see or connect a higher wage for low end jobs may be part of the problem and not the solution.

Well, the low wages have caused a lower than expected consumption rate affecting economic growth, and impeding a full recovery. Part of the reason the oil supply has been more than adequate, is the noticeably reduced demand.
The economy can't support low wages either. And as the debt these people have being getting into to get by increases, and costs of living continue to rise, it is likely the crime rate will go up.

So an increase in the Minimum Wage to $15 per hour would raise the cost of living proportionally resulting in no gain in buying power. This would leave us right back where we started from.

Erp, from what I've heard of places where it has happened, raising minimum wage does result in a slight increase in cost but it does not match the increase in income from the increased wage, a lot of it comes from lost profit of corporations. Corporations aren't free to willy nilly increase prices as much as they like, especially in a global market. Even if all US corps raised prices, people could just import from say china at lower cost.

In any case with or without a minimum wage increase the corporations are going to raise prices anyway, but rather than the money from the increased price going to you, it goes to those at the top as pure profit.

Further complicating this is that our education system no longer teaches people vocational skills so that they can learn a trade.

I don't think learning trades would do much good if done en masse, adding millions or say tens of millions of plumbers, will likely result in both the loss of income for plumbers from increased competition, and in many fully trained plumber burger flippers who can't find enough plumbing jobs to get by.

Wages are a function of supply and demand. Nothing more.

And connections making sure after doing an abysmal job as a CEO at X company, Y company hires you with open arms and puts a nice golden parachute for you.

Where are they? I know companies that would kill for certified machinists or welders.

And would pay them pennies if there was a glut of them.

Oil (gas) is down for the simple fact that they overproduced. Demand is still as high as ever.

Nope, the projected demand from economic growth for last year was far higher than current production, it just didn't materialize because economic growth did not meet expectations, ergo demand is lower than expected. They actually have been found overproducing, because they produced with the expectation of future greater demand which did not materialize.

Unfortunately, we have too many people trying to do just that with these jobs. The answer though is not artificially increasing the wages of jobs above their free market value.

The problem is that even wages slightly above the minimum are also lacking, even jumping to around 15 dollars, which is what many of these current minimum wage workers might jump too eventually, even without a hike in the min wage, is only about enough to cover costs of living. It isn't some luxury.

And AFAIK, there simply aren't enough teenagers and newbies to cover ALL JOBS AT OR BELOW 15 dollars, you say millions must earn below 15, but they won't all be transitory, and the all aren't currently transitory, and there aren't enough transitory to cover these.

MINIMUM WAGE STARTED AS LIVING WAGE, no REASON WHY IT shouldn't be. A parent isn't obligated to provide for an 18 year old, yet he must fully be able to provide for himself even if it is his first job.

That seems like just about the best way imaginable to increase federal revenues. You raise the incomes of people BELOW the poverty line by 30% so they can afford to live, eat, pay bills, and provide for their families (without any need for benefits), and you get more government revenues.

As it stands corporations get a tax benefit for hiring people on the minimum wage, since everyone at that wage level is automatically impoverished and requires government services to avoid starving to death.