Why isn't the book of Enoch in the Bible?

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: Akragon

Seems to me that would be par for the course though seeing as how there are talking snakes, people who lived 500+ years, and a guy who walked on water.

True enough.

But I hear people talking about inanimate objects "speaking" to them all the time. At department stores or art hovels people constantly say that these objects even "stand out."

I hear people talk about sports ball players being "on fire" when, for the most part, they seem to just be playing well.

Musicians are described in all sorts of similar ways and no one bats an eye. Honestly think of all the actual demons the tortured artists have battled through the ages or the "magic" they produce.


It all comes down to perception I suppose.

-FBB

a reply to: stormbringer1701

God's objective was to set the descendants of Adam apart from other peoples in order to provide for the messiah to be born whilst fulfilling all messianic prophesies. The proto-jews interbreeding and assimilating culture an religion from the surrounding peoples threatened the legitimacy of the messianic bloodline and threatened that there would be no one that could fulfill all of the prophesy concerning the messiah. Much of the atrocities in the OT were remedial action to protect the salvation plan.

You make is sound as if the God of the BIble is just a regular guying trying to do a job, but others keep messing things up for him. So, he has to keep making changes to his plan!

Either that, or the biblical God is a bungling fool that just can't get it right! Even his "salvation plan" winds up loses more souls than it saves!

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701

God's objective was to set the descendants of Adam apart from other peoples in order to provide for the messiah to be born whilst fulfilling all messianic prophesies. The proto-jews interbreeding and assimilating culture an religion from the surrounding peoples threatened the legitimacy of the messianic bloodline and threatened that there would be no one that could fulfill all of the prophesy concerning the messiah. Much of the atrocities in the OT were remedial action to protect the salvation plan.

You make is sound as if the God of the BIble is just a regular guying to do a job, but others keep messing things up for him. So, he has to keep making changes to his plan!

Either that, or the biblical God is a bungling fool that just can't get it right! Even his "salvation plan" winds up loses more souls than it saves!

when he gave us free will, yeah, that means we can screw things up. Or really that we can begin to but he sets things right since he anticipates every thing that will ever happen.

And he is not bungling. He required that his children, that's us, have the ability to give him genuine love , respect and honor voluntarily. Otherwise we would be automatons and any "love" would be false and unfulfilling.

So yes he made us imperfect. Yes he knew we would be trouble. Yes he cannot abide imperfection and that sets us up for destruction under his perfect standards. But He also knew how to create a legal way to prevent us from paying the penalty for our imperfection. The old covenant sets legal rules which must be followed which at the same time serving as condemnation for us also set up a framework for legal mercy on his part. From the very foundation of the world he planned on sending a messiah who would save us. this was not an ad hoc reaction because he was taken unaware. Moreover; he did the work of the Messiah himself. Emanuel. Before Abram was I AM (Yeshua referring to himself.) I Am is one of God's names. I Am *THAT* I Am. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

This is where Yeshua really angered the Jews:

So the Jews said to him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have you seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” 59 So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

They did that because they knew I Am is a name for God and Yeshua had just called himself God.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

This stuff is fairly off topic, but . . .

The whole point of "genuine" comes from the creation being independent, meaning disobedience and action in opposition to God or pursuing personal interests is possible. Being able to oppose the will of the God means that humanity can kill, rape, and torture and must be influenced (or won over) through temptation (the opposer) or blessings.

Then people will counter that the God of the Bible created humanity to be tortured, when the logical progression from the initial condition above would be that all these horrible things would occur.

Thus, the saviour and forgiveness.

To make this on topic, Enoch delivers the message from God that the fallen angels will not be pardoned because they were aware that God was God (think forgive them Father for they know not what they do) and sought to usurp the throne.

A good topic for another thread.

-FBB

a reply to: stormbringer1701

when he gave us free will

I'm going to stop you right there.

Can you show me in the Bible where God gives Adam, Eve or mankind free will as some gift? It seems to me that the God of the Bible tries every thing he can to get us to disavow our free will and/or convince us that we don't have it in the first place. When that doesn't work, the God the Bible threatens us with eternal damnation for using our free will.

We are constantly urged to let God work through us, and become "God's will". "Not my will, but thine." " Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." And, we are constantly told that our wisdom is filth, our works are soiled rags, the wise are fools and the weak are strong.

I Am is one of God's names. I Am *THAT* I Am. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

"I AM" is the name Moses gave the voice in the burning bush. "The Word", you refer to is from John 1:1, and it was a wide spread and popular Helenistic/Jewish contemporary philosophy, that was circulating about in the 1st century, thanks to a Jewish Rabbi/scholar named Philo.

They did that because they knew I Am is a name for God and Yeshua had just called himself God.

If you're talking about Jesus of Nazareth, he most certainly NEVER called himself "God".

yes; at least a portion of them are already judged like Satan. others probably aren't. the condemned ones are "reserved in chains of darkness until judgement day"

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701

when he gave us free will

I'm going to stop you right there.

Can you show me in the Bible where God gives Adam, Eve or mankind free will as some gift? It seems to me that the God of the Bible tries every thing he can to get us to disavow our free will and/or convince us that we don't have it in the first place. When that doesn't work, the God the Bible threatens us with eternal damnation for using our free will.

We are constantly urged to let God work through us, and become "God's will". "Not my will, but thine." " Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." And, we are constantly told that our wisdom is filth, our works are soiled rags, the wise are fools and the weak are strong.

I Am is one of God's names. I Am *THAT* I Am. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

"I AM" is the name Moses gave the voice in the burning bush. "The Word", you refer to is from John 1:1, and it was a wide spread and popular Helenistic/Jewish contemporary philosophy, that was circulating about in the 1st century, thanks to a Jewish Rabbi/scholar named Philo.

They did that because they knew I Am is a name for God and Yeshua had just called himself God.

If you're talking about Jesus of Nazareth, he most certainly NEVER called himself "God".

God told Adam and Eve NOT to eat of the tree.

If they did not have free will they would not have been able to do such a thing.

Logic.

-FBB

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701

when he gave us free will

I'm going to stop you right there.

Can you show me in the Bible where God gives Adam, Eve or mankind free will as some gift? It seems to me that the God of the Bible tries every thing he can to get us to disavow our free will and/or convince us that we don't have it in the first place. When that doesn't work, the God the Bible threatens us with eternal damnation for using our free will.

We are constantly urged to let God work through us, and become "God's will". "Not my will, but thine." " Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." And, we are constantly told that our wisdom is filth, our works are soiled rags, the wise are fools and the weak are strong.

I Am is one of God's names. I Am *THAT* I Am. In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God.

"I AM" is the name Moses gave the voice in the burning bush. "The Word", you refer to is from John 1:1, and it was a wide spread and popular Helenistic/Jewish contemporary philosophy, that was circulating about in the 1st century, thanks to a Jewish Rabbi/scholar named Philo.

They did that because they knew I Am is a name for God and Yeshua had just called himself God.

If you're talking about Jesus of Nazareth, he most certainly NEVER called himself "God".

firstly Moses didn't call God that He asked whom he should say sent him. God said "I am that I am" as an answer for that.

Free Will is necessary so that we can choose to Honor Love or Praise our Father. However; when our will is not in accord with His we sin. when we do that we dishonor him. we displease him. and He made us for his pleasure. As our creator we are his possessions and the owner has the right to dispose of his possessions as he sees fit. As his children it is our task to do our best to bring pleasure to him and in that task we ought to seek to know his will.

The proud do not wish to bend to his will even though it is right to do so. It isn't easy to accept that we are creations and that we are owned or that we owe everything to our creator. This is in fact the root of Satan's fall. We do it in miniature. But our opinions on it don't and cannot matter in our disposition at the appointed time.

Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Except that we are all sinners all condemned and someone has already died in our place.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

firstly Moses didn't call God that He asked whom he should say sent him. God said "I am that I am" as an answer for that.

LOL Supposedly, Moses tells us a story in which he claims a burning bush said it's name was "I AM". Happy now?

Free Will is necessary so that we can choose to Honor Love or Praise our Father. However; when our will is not in accord with His we sin.

In other words, according to your belief, only "free will" that God approves of is okay. "Free will" that God doesn't approve of, well, he'll kill us, or worse, damn us to eternity for using it.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701

firstly Moses didn't call God that He asked whom he should say sent him. God said "I am that I am" as an answer for that.

LOL Supposedly, Moses tells us a story in which he claims a burning bush said it's name was "I AM". Happy now?

Free Will is necessary so that we can choose to Honor Love or Praise our Father. However; when our will is not in accord with His we sin.

In other words, according to your belief, only "free will" that God approves of is okay. "Free will" that God doesn't approve of, well, he'll kill us, or worse, damn us to eternity for using it.

Yeah, that sounds fair.

your objection is with the definition of free will then. we can please or displease God. His pleasure or displeasure does not change the fact that we can choose to do either. and that is the definition of free will. we have the choice. as always we face the consequences of our choices. that is true whether our choices are mundane or spiritual. if you smoke you are free to do so but you face the biological consequences. you can commit a crime but you will do the time. That is freewill. Some choices are better or more expedient than others.

a reply to: FriedBabelBroccoli

If they did not have free will they would not have been able to do such a thing.

They were, supposedly, created in Gods' image, plural. The Gods had free will. The Gods tried to convince Adam and Eve that they didn't have free will, by forbidding something first, and then they threaten them with death if they did use their free will!

a reply to: stormbringer1701

His pleasure or displeasure does not change the fact that we can choose to do either. and that is the definition of free will.

Of course it does!

A robber holding a gun to your head can give you a choice too....."Your money or your life". If you run, or struggle and he kills you....well, that was your free will! You knew the consequences! Your fault!

Additionally Damned for eternity is a tricky subject. I believe that The lake of fire is a disposal. it's consequences are eternal. The bible only appears to say hell is eternal torment. There are linguistic reasons for most of the confusion on this issue. But the bible also clearly states that those in hell perish. Satan is described as burning to ashes from within and being a terror no more. The inhabitants of heaven tread on his ashes. It follows anyone else thrown into the same fire also turns to ash. over and over the bible exhorts people to turn from sin so they will not perish. perdition means to perish. john 3:16 "shall not Perish" Turn from your sins oh Israel and live. God says: "do you think I take pleasure from the death of the wicked?"

There is an ancient Hebrew and Semetic figure of speech about something that is final. They say that something is like the smoke of a fire that ascends upward to heaven forever. when this is used in the bible in reference to hell it is understandable that one might think it is the fires of hell that is eternal. That and the base for certain words like torment can lend themselves (and did for that matter) to the notion of a place of eternal burning and torment. But such a thing would be evil beyond any description. Such a thing God would not do. The lake of fire will be located where Gehenom was during Jesus's time on earth. Gehenom was a real place. it was what the Hellenized Jews of the time called the dump outside Jerusalem. Fires burned night and day to burn refuse animal corpses and offal and dung. It reeked. It was described in terms similar to hell Smoke going up night and day forever. Yet it is gone. every thing that burned in it is gone forever though.

originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701

His pleasure or displeasure does not change the fact that we can choose to do either. and that is the definition of free will.

Of course it does!

A robber holding a gun to your head can give you a choice too....."Your money or your life". If you run, or struggle and he kills you....well, that was your free will! You knew the consequences! Your fault!

You do have freewill even then. While i suspect your battle is with the apparent fairness or unfairness of the situation you're in thinking that any of that negates freewill. having what you may think are really crappy choices does not mean you don't have any.

Your issue is with the fact that you are not at liberty to escape judgement. that is the only thing about which you truly have no choice. Though you really do. While you cannot escape judgement you can escape the consequences. Someone offered to take the hit for you. and the person that did is the very person that set those conditions in the first place. Don't fall due to pride; oh little Lucifer. There is a little (Ok, a lot) of that devil in all of us.

a reply to: stormbringer1701

You do have freewill even then. While i suspect your battle is with the apparent fairness or unfairness of the situation you're in thinking that any of that negates freewill. having what you may think are really crappy choices does not mean you don't have any.

There's a difference between reality and accepting that reality, and "free will".

Sorry, but I don't think that a reality that states.."Do what "GOD" wants you to do or die and/or be eternally punished", is God's gift of "Free Will." Nor do I believe that people are suffering from disease, natural disaster and/or war because they strayed from God's will.

That doesn't change the fact that, in reality, to some extent I do have free will. I just don't believe in a God that needs to control my free will or judge my free choices.

Yet it is gone. every thing that burned in it is gone forever though.

That's just reality. A law of nature. You may use your free will to choose not to accept it, but that is reality. Everything returns to whence it came.

originally posted by: windword


They were, supposedly, created in Gods' image, plural. The Gods had free will. The Gods tried to convince Adam and Eve that they didn't have free will, by forbidding something first, and then they threaten them with death if they did use their free will!

When God said "let us make man in our image" he was talking to other beings but they were not Gods. At the least though you have got the wisdom to realize God has never used royal pronouns as some assume. In the age before Adam and Eve; God created all of his children in the form of spiritual beings. It is these children he is talking to. Satan's rebellion resulted in the forceful recall to the spiritual realm of all these children and the absolute desolation of the earth. Rather than judge everyone right there and destroying 2/3s of his children he arranged for them to have a chance at redemption through a trial of sorts in lowly animal flesh. Satan and his angels refused to submit to this indignity and it is because of this that they are doomed to destruction already. The plan involves a strict set of laws and a judicial process as well as means of remission. The rules themselves are nearly impossible for a flesh creature to adhere to perfectly. But they do include the framework for salvation through grace. The second part of the plan involved a sacrifice and a scapegoat according to the rules of the covenant. The sacrifice would be fulfilled by the "flesh" incarnation of God himself. After that there was only the need to accept the sacrifice on their behalf by it's potential benefactors. and all of this was the plan from the very start even before the fall of the first age.

All of us aren't dead ringers for God as many suppose. Jesus was though. He said so himself. Since we don't all look like Jesus we also do not all look like God. but we look like someone who was included in the "us" that God addressed in that verse. We look like that "us" there or one of those in that crowd at any rate. In Job we have the sons of God or morning stars singing for joy at the laying of the foundation of the world. We all pre-existed Adam and Eve in the flesh and 2/3s of us had already sinned before Eve was even in the garden. It isn't what Eve did that was the original sin. 1/3 of us were dumb enough to be convinced by Satan/Lucifer to enter into open war against God. 1/3 of us were so indifferent that we wanted to wait and see which side of that battle would win. Only 1/3 of God's children openly sided with God. 2/3s of us were in serious trouble.

During this conflict earth because a ruin. After some interval God begin to remodel the ruined earth. All of this between line one and three of the Genesis creation narrative from elsewhere in the bible. that and the mistranslation in line two.

In Isaiah (and elsewhere) it says the earth was not created tauhou and vauhou (a void and a ruin; same words in line two of the genesis creation verses) but perfect and fit to be inhabited. This is one of those "contradictions" atheists/bible critics love to find. In line two in the original manuscripts the word "was" is actually "became" so should be read "and the world became void and without form." Conflict resolved.

addendum: In general and absolutely in this age people do not get diseases or have disaster befall them because they sin. In The OT the instances of that were to establish the authority of the law and of the covenant and to serve as ensamples to us all.none of that happened at all in the NT and hasn't until this day and won't until the tribulation. Jesus's disciples even asked about this sort of thing and Jesus basically said poop happens because people happen to be in the wrong place at the wrong time.

luke 13:4

Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?

and luke 13 1-2

13 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.

2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?

a reply to: stormbringer1701
Blah blah blah, I disagree.

alla reply to: Gnosisisfaith
I hereby forever canonize the book of Enoch. As it exhonerates man from the flood. It was the Nephilim not us that had to go. And before. Some retard brings up the fact that the bible says they existed after the flood, I already know that. But nothing like the ante deluvian era.

a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

THIS IS NOT TO GO OFF TOPIC AND NOT TO BE REPLIED TO AS IT IS JUST A HEADS UP FOR THE THREAD AUTHOR FOR ANOTHER INTERESTING SUBJECT.

This is not a reply just something else you may be interested in if you like ancient text's, this is not biblical but to do with India and will make you think?, it is in no way related to this thread except in so far as the Nephilm as an advanced and perhaps extra terrestrial race (though it is pretty obvious if they had sex and kid's with woman they were another race of human's and obviously physical beings so must have had transport of some kind? even if they came from an off world colony back to the earth which was now a re-seeded nature reserve with a museum specimen more primitive race of man and off limit's).

Now you will have heard on some other thread's about the channelled text the Vimanika Shastra from ancient india which only came into print in the 20th century so can be ignorded on that fact alone however this text THE "Samarangana Sutradhara" which was written in about 1050 in India supposedly based on even earlier texts.
atlantisquest.com...

Remember though Translation's can be subjective and non more so than modern translation of ancient texts, I for instance read a Jet with a pointed nose cone (Battering Ram).
mathomathis.blogspot.co.uk...

It has been commented by many about the ancient civilization of Ninevah and the fertile crescent that though agriculture must have been there for thousand's of years before the great city state's it is however odd that they appeared seemingly from no where onto this earlier agrarian culture and had a full phonetic alphabet (Cuniform which lasted for thousands of years as it was possible to spell words in any spoken language with it and so was passed down to other civilization's long after they had been destroyed), an extremely complex mathematical system which used the Decimal point and the number Zero, the decimal was then not reinvented until John Napier a Scot's Laird reinvented it in the 16th or early 17th centurym, they also apparently knew the value of PI which was not reinvented until at least the classical greeks but all this Inherited knowledge was lost as there was no practical use for these abstract sciences after the end of the ninevan civilization, it is also interesting to comment how they may have education for there children and tought them literacy and mathematics as well as having the olderst (Acheaologically varified and western accepted but not if the Mahabaratta is correct) professional army.

though this is off subject and the whole thing is a can of worms to some on this site I hope you find some enjoyment in the read as it does ask some interesting questions about our true history.