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originally posted by: TheChrome
originally posted by: Raggedyman
originally posted by: TheChrome
I agree and disagree. I agree the book of Enoch is baseless. However, the Hebrew/Aramaic Scriptures and the Greek Scriptures are in harmony and provide the complete guide for God's followers. If the Jews follow the "Old Testament" and Christendom follows the "New Testament" then both of them are not understanding the full context of the scripture.
I am sorry
I dont believe the law can be in harmony with grace, not in any context
Old testament under the law, death and severe justice metered out by humanity and God
New Testament, Grace poured out onto humanity and christians to be a living walking Gospel of Gods grace through Christs to humanity
The OT points to Jesus. The Jews are following the old laws and that is the problem, they deny Jesus, they do not understand the full context of scripture
The Law foreshadowed Christ:
(Colossians 2:17) "These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.
(Romans 10:4) "Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."
These scriptures do not in any way negate the contents of the Old Testament, rather it points to the fulfillment of it in Christ.
originally posted by: Akragon
a reply to: DrogoTheNorman
Simply put....
the book of Enoch teaches things that Christianity does not believe in
It also tells about things that are complete nonsense... even to a Christian
originally posted by: stormbringer1701
except... i think i said that.
originally posted by: Miccey
Imho you are all wrong. The book isnt
there cause it didnt fit the agenda of
the leaders at the time.. And never will...
However many scholars believe it was excluded due to a schism of philosophy among the early church fathers. One faction believed that the spirit and the flesh were mutually exclusive and could not mix. Another faction felt that spirit could mingle with flesh. the latter lost out and because the book of Enoch contradicted the prevailing belief it was banished from canon.
... in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]
The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades" (rephaim), entities without personality or strength.[2] Under some circumstances they are thought to be able to be contacted by the living, as the Witch of Endor contacts the shade of Samuel for Saul, but such practices are forbidden (Deuteronomy 18:10).[3]
A Jewish story of angels coming down to earth rather than being cast down, referred to as the story of angelic descent,[16] is found chiefly in the Jewish pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch, 6-9 and the Qumran Book of Giants and perhaps in Genesis 6:1-4.[17] These Watchers became "enamored" with human women (1 Enoch 7.2),[18] and had intercourse with them. The offspring of these unions, and the knowledge they were given, corrupted human beings and the earth (1 Enoch 10.11-12).[18] A number of apocryphal works, including 1 Enoch (10.4)[18] link this transgression with the Great Deluge.[19] This fact was adopted by early Christianity, but abandoned by Rabbinic Judaism and later Christianity.[20] During the period immediately before the rise of Christianity, the intercourse between these Watchers and human women was often seen as the first fall of the angels.[21]
Heb. nephilim, meaning "violent" or "causing to fall" ( Genesis 6:4 ). These were the violent tyrants of those days, those who fell upon others. The word may also be derived from a root signifying "wonder," and hence "monsters" or "prodigies." In Numbers 13:33 this name is given to a Canaanitish tribe, a race of large stature, "the sons of Anak." The Revised Version, in these passages, simply transliterates the original, and reads "Nephilim." Heb. rephaim, a race of giants ( Deuteronomy 3:11 ) who lived on the east of Jordan, from whom Og was descended. They were probably the original inhabitants of the land before the immigration of the Canaanites. They were conquered by Chedorlaomer ( Genesis 14:5 ), and their territories were promised as a possession to Abraham ( 15:20 ).
The Anakim, Zuzim, and Emim were branches of this stock. In Job 26:5 (RSV, "they that are deceased;" marg., "the shades," the "Rephaim") and Isaiah 14:9 this Hebrew word is rendered (A.V.) "dead." It means here "the shades," the departed spirits in Sheol. In Sam Isaiah 21:16 Isaiah 21:18 Isaiah 21:20 Isaiah 21:33 , "the giant" is (A.V.) the rendering of the singular form ha raphah , which may possibly be the name of the father of the four giants referred to here, or of the founder of the Rephaim. The Vulgate here reads "Arapha," whence Milton (in Samson Agonistes) has borrowed the name "Harapha." (See also 1 Chronicles 20:5 1 Chronicles 20:6 1 Chronicles 20:8 ; Deuteronomy 2:11 Deuteronomy 2:20 ; 3:13 ; Joshua 15:8 , etc., where the word is similarly rendered "giant.") It is rendered "dead" in (A.V.) Psalms 88:10 ; Proverbs 2:18 ; 9:18 ; 21:16 : in all these places the Revised Version marg. has "the shades." (See also Isaiah 26:14 .)
And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl, taught astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun, and Sariêl the course of the moon.
originally posted by: Akragon
Not understanding something... and believing people were once 450 feet tall, or a snake and a donkey once had a little chat with men are hardly the same thing
originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: DrogoTheNorman
I can't believe nobody went there yet, so I do:
Because he talks about things which are not usefull in controlling the masses. Like what if there is no place like heaven or hell, but Sheol:
... in the Hebrew Bible, is a place of darkness to which all the dead go, both the righteous and the unrighteous, regardless of the moral choices made in life, a place of stillness and darkness cut off from life and from the Hebrew God.[1]
The inhabitants of Sheol are the "shades" (rephaim), entities without personality or strength.[2] Under some circumstances they are thought to be able to be contacted by the living, as the Witch of Endor contacts the shade of Samuel for Saul, but such practices are forbidden (Deuteronomy 18:10).[3]
and in the first book it is a lot about Earth and humans getting corrupted from "angels":
A Jewish story of angels coming down to earth rather than being cast down, referred to as the story of angelic descent,[16] is found chiefly in the Jewish pseudepigraphic Book of Enoch, 6-9 and the Qumran Book of Giants and perhaps in Genesis 6:1-4.[17] These Watchers became "enamored" with human women (1 Enoch 7.2),[18] and had intercourse with them. The offspring of these unions, and the knowledge they were given, corrupted human beings and the earth (1 Enoch 10.11-12).[18] A number of apocryphal works, including 1 Enoch (10.4)[18] link this transgression with the Great Deluge.[19] This fact was adopted by early Christianity, but abandoned by Rabbinic Judaism and later Christianity.[20] During the period immediately before the rise of Christianity, the intercourse between these Watchers and human women was often seen as the first fall of the angels.[21]
Giant, by the way doesn't necessarilly mean tall,
Heb. nephilim, meaning "violent" or "causing to fall" ( Genesis 6:4 ). These were the violent tyrants of those days, those who fell upon others. The word may also be derived from a root signifying "wonder," and hence "monsters" or "prodigies." In Numbers 13:33 this name is given to a Canaanitish tribe, a race of large stature, "the sons of Anak." The Revised Version, in these passages, simply transliterates the original, and reads "Nephilim." Heb. rephaim, a race of giants ( Deuteronomy 3:11 ) who lived on the east of Jordan, from whom Og was descended. They were probably the original inhabitants of the land before the immigration of the Canaanites. They were conquered by Chedorlaomer ( Genesis 14:5 ), and their territories were promised as a possession to Abraham ( 15:20 ).
The Anakim, Zuzim, and Emim were branches of this stock. In Job 26:5 (RSV, "they that are deceased;" marg., "the shades," the "Rephaim") and Isaiah 14:9 this Hebrew word is rendered (A.V.) "dead." It means here "the shades," the departed spirits in Sheol. In Sam Isaiah 21:16 Isaiah 21:18 Isaiah 21:20 Isaiah 21:33 , "the giant" is (A.V.) the rendering of the singular form ha raphah , which may possibly be the name of the father of the four giants referred to here, or of the founder of the Rephaim. The Vulgate here reads "Arapha," whence Milton (in Samson Agonistes) has borrowed the name "Harapha." (See also 1 Chronicles 20:5 1 Chronicles 20:6 1 Chronicles 20:8 ; Deuteronomy 2:11 Deuteronomy 2:20 ; 3:13 ; Joshua 15:8 , etc., where the word is similarly rendered "giant.") It is rendered "dead" in (A.V.) Psalms 88:10 ; Proverbs 2:18 ; 9:18 ; 21:16 : in all these places the Revised Version marg. has "the shades." (See also Isaiah 26:14 .)
Notice something?
If humans interbreed with angels,they become shades. Invincible to the normal human. But humans also learned a lot from them:
And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings, Armârôs the resolving of enchantments, Barâqîjâl, taught astrology, Kôkabêl the constellations, Ezêqêêl the knowledge of the clouds, Araqiêl the signs of the earth, Shamsiêl the signs of the sun, and Sariêl the course of the moon.
Which basically tells the story how humans were mere animals, living in connection with god(=their environment), untill these "beings" came from "heaven", breeding with them and taught them everything that started us building civilisations.
oops, sorry sources:
wiki
biblestudytools
originally posted by: Punisher75
a reply to: windword
Is spirit mingling with flesh supernatural?
That is how I would define it, providing we are defining the Supernatural, in a traditional sense.
originally posted by: stormbringer1701
The fall of Lucifer and those he convinced to follow him resulted in one fall the events of which aren't very well covered in the bible because it happened in an age before the current one and so the details aren't germane to the purpose and design of the bible which mostly stays on topic. Any "non topical" stuff in the bible is for those who plumb the bible for it's mysteries to uncover.
originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: windword
I could go into detail
But like rain on a hot tin roof
Believe what you want