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Why isn't the book of Enoch in the Bible?

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posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 01:46 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701

You don't know what you are talking about, stick to the nt




posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 01:46 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701

You don't know what you are talking about, stick to the nt



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 01:48 PM
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The thread is about the book of Enoch. The thing that got Enoch tossed out of the bible was the question of whether spiritual beings (angels and the like) could "mingle" with the flesh. Well here is a non-Enochean biblical witness to that fact that Enoch was correct.

as a proponent of the authenticity of Enoch as scripture you should welcome this.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 01:51 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701




. Satan and his angels refused to submit to this indignity and it is because of this that they are doomed to destruction already. The plan involves a strict set of laws and a judicial process as well as means of remission.


That was addressed in the Book of Enoch, and ALL those Angels were defeated and bound deep in the earth, not to be released until Judgement Day.

Further, the Book of Genesis lays no "plan for salvation" in the way of a scapegoat, nor does GOD(s) promise to incarnate as a mortal to volunteer as a sacrifice to himself for the shortcomings of their own creation.

What the (allegorical) Genesis story does do is place the responsibility for overcoming our "animal nature" squarely on us, using our own fortitude:


Genesis 4:6
Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast? 7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.




What you have to remember about this text is that with no real verifiable Jewish source for the text we do not know if it was a genuine or a later and possibly Gnostic text, remember about Gnostic christianity is that it only used Christianity as a vehicle for another more philosophical based religion which may have originated in non jewish and non christian religions and philosophys, it was heavily influenced for example by pre christian greek philosophy.

It was common for a gnostic text to look very different to the non Gnostic version from the same time period for example as Gnostics would encode Knowledge (gnosis) into there version, often so that the uninitiated would simply not understand and see something totally different to the interpretation which would be clear to there particular school of Gnosis.

Egypt and Alexandria in particular (were some works may have been hidden in private scholars hand's and so survived the earlier burning of the great library) was a real hot bed of Gnostic Religion, as christianity swept the empire these non Christian Gnostic's often simply changed there outward religion while maintaing there Gnostic tradition among there initiated, indeed even today despite the later and rather unchristian church purges which saw the end of the Gnostic traditions and schools with many Gnostic's fleeing into the wilderness to become hermit's or burying there texts to keep them from being burned as heretical work's and the subsequent extinction of most Gnostic tradition (which was as I say a philosophical school hidden behind a religion and which felt free to tailor the religion to incorporate it's root belief's) today many such as the Freemasons of some large branches have lain claim to descent from the Gnostic school's (they are not as they can only really draw there Gnostic tradtitions from the 1700's onward though freemasonry is nearly a thousand years old in itself before these Gnostic traditions were incorporated by it's higher echelon members).

So without un deniable proof that this is the original version given it's gnostic style I suspect that this is exactly what this version of the book of Enoch is, a Gnostic text that said however since it may be based on a non gnostic version there will be some of the book of enock from the earlier version still within it but gleening the wheat from the chaff is at this stage not possible.

Think how many were misunderstanding the Gnostic wife of Jesus SOPHIA which some Gnostic schools used, SOPHIA - SOPHIS is actually greek for Wisdom, cue the Dan Brownites and there reinterpretation of painting painted by people whom were often illiterate and could not even read the bible, sadly sometime's a little knowledge misinterpreted can cause a landslide into oblivion and we are all guilty of this.
edit on 16-1-2016 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 01:57 PM
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tangentially- one of the titles God in the NT is Cardio-Gnostes in the greek. which means knower of the heart.




Act 15:8

WHO KNOWS THE HEART: "Cardio-gnostes" = "heart-knower" (only other use in Acts 1:24; cp Psa 139:1).




posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:01 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767




What you have to remember about this text is that with no real verifiable Jewish source for the text we do not know if it was a genuine or a later and possibly Gnostic text, remember about Gnostic christianity is that it only used Christianity as a vehicle for another more philosophical based religion which may have originated in non jewish and non christian religions and philosophys, it was heavily influenced for example by pre christian greek philosophy.


I don't understand what you're talking about. Neither Genesis nor the Book of Enoch are Gnostic texts. The Book of Enoch was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls, not the Nag Hammadi library, which is composed of Gnostic texts.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:14 PM
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a reply to: windword


That's a given reality. Death is inevitable for everything that lives, regardless of obedience or disobedience. When did an Oak Tree or a hive of Honey Bees sin? Death is a law of nature, here on Earth. It has nothing to do with obedience to someone's idea of what a creator being wants of its creation.

That is a good point but then you left out other parts of that theology. The oak tree and the honey bee do not have an everlasting spirit of life. Would that oak tree and those bees live forever if man had not chosen death? It depends upon what you mean by world. The world that Adam lived in was the garden and sin was not in the garden till Adam introduced sin in the garden.

But that is not to say that sin was not in the world because we are told that the serpent (Beast) was already in sin and lived in the world. So as you can see the garden must have been sort of a special place devoid of sin. But where the honey bees or even oak trees lived is not really known. In the garden or outside of the garden? Who can tell? Was death already outside of the garden when Adam sinned? Some believe that death was at the gates of the garden and that the serpent and others were already under that sentence.

Sin was not not allowed to exist in the garden but was allowed to exist outside of the garden. So what did the Creator do? He removed the garden and left the sin. Was that a foolish thing to do? Well, if the Creator had left the garden and removed the sin then His creation would be robots with no choice and the tree of life would then be of little or no value.

So, according to what I believe, the garden was removed as a lower Gan Eden to an upper Gan Eden. It is now given back as the New Jerusalem or kingdom of heaven through the ministry of Christ Jesus. My opinions of course.








edit on 16-1-2016 by Seede because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: windword

Right I am referring to the Ethiopian book of Enoch, I did remember there was a fragment of one found at one of those two sites but it was if I remember not the entire text but rather fragments of it though it did apparently allign well with the Ethioian text.

The possible Gnostic route though to answer is as I said earlier via the Nile valley up into Ethiopia perhaps during the persecution of the Gnostic sect's which later arose and the potential some Gnostic texts may have then found there way into the Ethiopian church's keeping via there monastery at Lake Tana, that said I was stating a supposition as it may also not be a Gnostic text.

How much of the text was found at Qumran.
edit on 16-1-2016 by LABTECH767 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:28 PM
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The reason Enoch got bumped is because it blames the flood on the Nephilim, and thry would prefer we feel responsible



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:41 PM
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a reply to: Gnosisisfaith

That could be one reason but there are other reason's that are possible reason's including it's passages describing heaven which may not allign exactly with later text's, problematic as Enoch saw it and from our later readings it is in some parts incomprehensible to our mindsets though - and - indeed these passages are one reason I suspect possible Gnostic influence on the Ethiopian text the full translation of which I read but bare in mind some of the problem with this later english translation may be down to dodgy translation as well, if the Ethiopian text has Gnostic influence then that at least can be ruled out of being a reason for it's non inclusion if there was a non Gnostic version extant at that time and that leave's your suggested reason as a primary possibility, ORGANISED religion is about control especially when a state takes control of it and amend's that religions teaching to be more conducive to it's purpose.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:49 PM
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originally posted by: Gnosisisfaith
The reason Enoch got bumped is because it blames the flood on the Nephilim, and thry would prefer we feel responsible
the reason for the flood was the Jews were about to be fully assimilated culturally and genetically with the surrounding people which would invalidate the messianic prophesies. The nephilium and the kennites were only part of the issue. Had the Adamic people obeyed God about keeping themselves apart the flood would not have been necessary no matter how wicked the kennites and nephilium were. God's anger was more about preserving the way to salvation more than punishing anyone. Scientific evidence and just plain reason contradicts the world flood interpretation but a world flood was not necessary to preserve the Adamic line. A regional flood would do. there is evidence of a regional flood at the right time. But none for a world flood. in fact mesoamerican civilization and many other civilizations clearly survived any such flood. further; the original MSS linguistics support a regional flood as easily as a world flood.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:56 PM
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a reply to: Seede




The oak tree and the honey bee do not have an everlasting spirit of life.


Why do you think that? Of course they have everlasting life! Why wouldn't they? Will there be no Honey Bees or Oak Trees in your heaven, or dogs for that matter?



But that is not to say that sin was not in the world because we are told that the serpent (Beast) was already in sin and lived in the world.


Who told you that?


Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the LORD God had made.


The Serpent was in the (allegorical) Garden. Perhaps the Serpent was allowed to go in and our of the door, but we have no way of knowing that.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 02:58 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701

IF, and that's a bold IF, that were true, all GOD Almighty would have had to have done was to make the men and women of the offending group barren. Problem solved!



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 03:06 PM
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a reply to: LABTECH767





How much of the text was found at Qumran.


Don't know. But the scroll was probably carried in many Synagogues during the 1st and 2nd centuries BC, as it was being discussed during the 1st century AD by Jewish philosophers, so it was being studied it BEFORE the advent of Christianity.



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 03:09 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701

IF, and that's a bold IF, that were true, all GOD Almighty would have had to have done was to make the men and women of the offending group barren. Problem solved!

well there is the fact that no hybrids have been produced since then and won't until the end days. and that would not have stopped cultural and spiritual adulteration of the Adamic people. part of the prophesy was they would adhere to proper veneration and worship of and fidelity to God the Father.
edit on 16-1-2016 by stormbringer1701 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 03:19 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701wrong again



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:16 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701

There were no jews before the flood jew comes from judah
edit on 16-1-2016 by Gnosisisfaith because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:19 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701

There weren't even hebrews and the flood was to wipe out the Nephilim and preserve humans



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:26 PM
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a reply to: stormbringer1701how could there be jews when Judah is Israels son??



posted on Jan, 16 2016 @ 05:37 PM
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originally posted by: windword
a reply to: stormbringer1701

stormbringer1701: when he gave us free will


windword: I'm going to stop you right there.
Can you show me in the Bible where God gives Adam, Eve or mankind free will as some gift? It seems to me that the God of the Bible tries every thing he can to get us to disavow our free will and/or convince us that we don't have it in the first place. When that doesn't work, the God the Bible threatens us with eternal damnation for using our free will.

We never have/had free will. We always work in the best interests of the system dynamic (ITS WILL) to continue a POSITIVE outcome of this creation in progress (it leaves nothing to chance); this is an an *all in* experiment and would never let anything so tiny as the human; (or false idea forms sprung from organized entities that took hold *Satan*/Lucifer?) unless IT; the system dynamic decided (yes windword) to destroy the Bee populations; then all is lost, we then are left with evolving quickly the ability to digest dirt.
edit on 16-1-2016 by vethumanbeing because: (no reason given)




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