The Real Reason Poverty Exists

a reply to: Puppylove

Most people work for nothing in today's world and these jokers would have them working for even less while they personally sit high on the hog judging everyone else from some cushy job they barely do any work at themselves.

They should go tell the 44% of homeless people working full time jobs that they earn more than what they should and to work harder and stop being lazy.

Yeah there's 3 billion job openings!

Oh wait that's only in fantasy land where our economy works for more than 1% of the worlds population...

Yeah in fantasy land.

a reply to: ketsuko

What I'm proposing is much, much, much further from slavery than what we have today.

a reply to: Puppylove

You're going to have to do something about the people sitting on their asses or your model would never work.

I say if you're going to make the basics free to everyone, then you're going to have to require everyone to participate in the production of those things.

And if you're going to force people to work, then you might as well scrap the entire financial system to make our workforce as efficient as possible and capable of providing much more than just the basics.

a reply to: Bone75

Get over yourself most people hustle government subsidies don't give you even the basics anymore. People work full time and collect subsidies in most states because of how fast cost of living has increased.

Sick and tired of hearing about this do something about people sitting on their ass.

SICK OF IT!

It's bull#! People do not sit on their and do nothing! Most people are active and live! Total and complete b*ll#!

a reply to: Bone75

What one question said. No one is forced to work, it's not necessary. You want to live above basic you work, you don't you live at basic.

Almost no one will chose to live at basic without ever contributing ever. That's a load of crap. The only one here forcing people to work is you. I'm giving the no work option while making actually working enticing and worthwhile.

What I'm proposing is as anti-slavery as you get.

You keep complaining about people sitting on their butts while accusing me of forcing people to work. When I'm making work optional, forcing no one, and making working actually worth something.

You're the only one proposing slavery by saying, even though it's not necessary these days with our tech, etc, everyone needs to work 40+ hours a week for basic essentials.

I'm freeing everybody.

a reply to: onequestion

Calm down big guy. We're on the same team as far as the endgame is concerned, I just have a different approach.

Let's say I own Walmart and I'm taking applications for everything involved in the production of the products on those shelves. Here's the deal... I'm not paying you. Instead, if you just work say 1 day a week until the day you're 50, I'll allow you to walk into any one of my stores and get whatever you want whenever you want, even after you retire.

Would you apply?

What if I throw in a house and all the materials you could ever need to customize it to your liking, plus a car and free admission to every resort in the country if you just work 3 days a week?

Would you take the job?

a reply to: Bone75

Sounds like a good job to me.

a reply to: Bone75

Seeing as McDonald's these days fight tooth and nail to not provide free lunch to their employees, not seeing Walmart doing anything that benevolent anytime soon.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: Bone75

Seeing as McDonald's these days fight tooth and nail to not provide free lunch to their employees, not seeing Walmart doing anything that benevolent anytime soon.

Both of those corporations are gleaming examples of honesty and respect. Of how the community should function.

They are also gleaming examples of business has been totally corrupt by Wall Street and bottom line policy with total disregard for the people employed and only caring about how much they make for their buddies.

Jerkoffs deserve to die.

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Bone75

Sounds like a good job to me.

Well that's what we're capable of if we eliminate money and require civil service. Same thing, just on a bigger scale.

originally posted by: Bone75

originally posted by: onequestion
a reply to: Bone75

Sounds like a good job to me.

Well that's what we're capable of if we eliminate money and require civil service. Same thing, just on a bigger scale.

I'm down. Anything is better then slavery so some asshole can have a mansion.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: Bone75

Seeing as McDonald's these days fight tooth and nail to not provide free lunch to their employees, not seeing Walmart doing anything that benevolent anytime soon.

"There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" (aka TANSTAAFL)

-Robert Heinlein

Again, I am STILL hearing the grumblings of the "bootstrapping" crowd in this post. Other than blind luck, in a niche business venture, this strategy doesn't work anymore

Keeping up with the basics in terms of education and on-the-job work skills won’t be enough, for jobs requiring future-tech, contemporary labor market, skill-sets. The poor and even the middle class (not the upper middle class) will simply NOT be able to keep up with the skill demands for future employment, which will include REQUIRED CERTIFICATIONS, STATE LICENSING, etc. The lower class laborers will still needs to earn wages, pay mandatory education/licensing fees out of pocket AND keep a roof over their heads ALL at the same time. In the VERY NEAR future, these very high costs skills that will be needed to stay “relevant” in ALL labor markets, will only be affordable to the rich, or possibly, to a VERY few, forward thinking, middle class families, willing to sacrifice everything they have financially, while pooling resources, to keep their offspring competitive, in the larger job market.

I will begin with the usual assertion I hear in regards to the impact of these, soon to be real, “future-tech jobs", which contrary to beliefs of some, includes the trades and accompanying "proprietary tech" that will not be repairable, only "replaceable by a certified/licensed tech".

“Someone has to get paid to fix the robots!”

I often hear this above noted rebuttal to mass automation and current labor cutting measure in the modern workplace, BUT it misses a subtle point that ONLY the children of the wealthy will have the opportunity to become TRUE experts in such fields. Let me clarify, through the prior 20th century, a poor kid who studied hard could become a lawyer, accountant, even a doctor sometimes, with the right combination of hard work, savings, scholarships, family support, etc. or the lower classes simply went directly into the trades, learning on the job, WITH PAY. HOWEVER, in current engineering and technician curriculum’s today, times have changed, to favor kids whom have had access to expensive software and hardware to “experiment” with and free-time to “practice” on before entering college or into their chosen training program. So, when these kids finally get to college or into their apprenticeships, those whom have had lots of "free time" to “play” with robotics and programming, outside of class, WILL CERTAINLY outpace their less privileged peer who had to flip burgers, part-time, to pay rent and school expenses.

Before 1990, 40% of teenagers had part-time jobs while in school. This is a relevant statistic because today only 20% of teenagers in school have part-time jobs. Teens at one time made up a sizable portion of the workforce and such changes in employment practices have shifted away from this, meaning, poor kids do not have any opportunity to build jobs skills of any kind, before, during and after college.

Although not my primary point, I do think there is plenty of evidence that lower class teens today, not only, do not have the opportunity to get part-time jobs, but in addition the wealthy kids are beginning to develop advanced skill-sets, that COULD be MORE helpful in their future adult careers, than say, “working at a taco stand after school”. Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg are very good, EARLY, examples of people who made use of their free time and access to money, without the need to labor for part-time pay. During that free time they develop specialized skills that could not have been learned at a MINDLESS part-time job or even in formal schooling. In the end, they leveraged free time learning and access to tech, due to having wealthy parents, into long term careers.

Here is a modern example of a company with a big contract to fill and absolutely "no will" to increase wages to attract experienced personnel, nor the desire to train inexperienced ones on the job, while paid. Instead they put out a story on the web bellyaching

bridgemi.com...

In the link below this paragraph, I have posted an example of what I believe to be a young person, from a well off family, who majored in robotics at USC. She doesn’t appear to have had any unrelated part-time job, in relation to her major, while in college. She also seem to have had access to technology, to experiment and PLAY with, in her spare time. She earned her masters & bachelors back-to-back AND at the end of college, got a job offer at a University sponsored dinner party for robotics majors. NOBODY I went to college with, EVER, got a job offer at a university sponsored dinner party. In contrast, I’m sure many Ivy league and top 10 school graduates do get job offers at university sponsored dinner parties. My point being, these future “robot repair jobs” are going to require smart kids, with desire to advance, whom also went to good schools, had lots of spare time and money to play with the tech outside of school AND get their jobs offered at dinner parties, some of which will be non-paying internships at first. These job offers will not be gained through sending out blind jobs applications through Linkedin or company job boards, as has been done up until now. Basically what this girl is doing for Disney will, in the near future, be more like what a plumber or electrician does today, EXCEPT you won’t get trained on the job, in a low-pay apprenticeship, when at “entry level”. In fact to even be considered for these “future-tech jobs” in the first place you’ll need to have good academic pedigree, lots of unpaid hobby experience and 1+ years of unpaid internships. Can kids outside of the upper middle class do the same thing as this young woman? I think not!

Here is her story, readers can decide for themselves, my opinion is that this is what careers in the trades are going to look like in 15+ years:

onedublin.org...

Those whom are going to be rendered jobless by automation/robotics/tech are going to be the least likely to be able to pick up these pieces, in the coming era of traditional jobs destruction. Its going to IMPOSSIBLE for the poor to go back to school and get a masters degree in robotics, in full-time only engineering programs. Contrary to belief these programs strongly discourage their admitted students from taking part-time jobs, while favoring students who have both the money and free time, whom have NEVER work at an unrelated job to their majors and also buy expensive robotics hardware/software to experiment with outside of class.

Mark my words the future labor market in the pursuit of “maintaining robots or other tech” is going to be the sole domain of rich kids, with advanced degrees from good schools because NO ONE is going to train anyone else perceived as lesser, in that kind of job, WITH PAY.

To continue my above point, I believe “rich kid” job mobility is going to be a bigger problem for regular folks, beyond what the previous "rich kid" pedigree typically bought in the 20th century. Their unfettered access to endless money and time, to “explore” academics and hands-on work, with no consequences, is going to END job mobility of any kind for the lower and middle classes; even for those whom have met the typical required higher education and work experience standards. Its a superstar only job market now, with no room for middle of road folks.

a reply to: boohoo

Thank you for your post. It will fall on deaf ears though.

a reply to: boohoo

Your post deserves a thread of its own. It's a concept that some people just can't wrap their heads around.

a reply to: EternalSolace

I concur!!!

a reply to: boohoo

I agree with your assessment. However, the answer is not simply just redistributing wealth so these people don't have to work. The problem is our educational system is not keeping up with the structural changes in the workforce and giving kids the skills necessary to prepare them for jobs of the future.

originally posted by: Puppylove
We have the resources to provide, we have the technology to provide, we have the workforce to provide ten times over, the reason we don't is greed plain and simple. This will be my shortest thread post because it's a very simple concept.

It might be simple, but it's also mindblowingly wrong. For a start, all of those resources and all of that technology is mostly available because of "big business". There's a reason why humanity spent thousands of year pottering about at a cottage industry level, then suddenly BANG! From Industrial Revolution to walking on the moon in a mere 200 years.

originally posted by: Puppylove
As long as we work for needs, big business has all the power, as that need forces we the people to beg at their feet to service them for table scraps. This allows them to use us, and abuse us to their hearts content. It allows them to engage us in unfair, and unequal trade. Where we give more than we receive.

That's not a problem with business, that's a problem with you. Somebody with skills, experience, and a negotiating mindset will not end up an "unfair, and unequal trade". If you walk into an interview with nothing more to offer than the hundred other applicants, then you have nothing useful to trade except how much compliance you are prepared to offer.

Don't like it? Be better. If you can't be better, get used to getting less than those who can.

The world is what you make of it. Sounds perfectly fair to me.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: Puppylove
So what's your solution then, communism?
I'm self employed and worked damn hard to get where I am today, does your utopian world reward hard work?
So yeah instead of whining tell us your solution please.
Would we still have a token of currency?
How would I be paid by others for my work, potatoes?

There is a suprisingly large but incredibly earnest cult within the ATS community that sincerely believe it's enough to squeeze your eyes shut really tight, then wish really hard, and suddenly a magic unicorn will fly overhead pooping out vegan-friendly ready-meals and gold coins.

You're making the mistake of assuming it could ever make sense to someone who believes that you need to break a sweat (physically and/or metaphorically) to make money.

originally posted by: gosseyn
a reply to: grainofsand
The solutions for getting out of this never ending cycle of manipulation is to give to people the means to produce their own sustainability, by giving to the people access to the same technologies that corporations use. See this thread www.abovetopsecret.com...

Ahhh, I see. It's that super special secret technology that corporations are keeping from us.

Well, most of that technology is available to you, Joe Public, free via online patent databases. That's the patent trade-off - the patent holder gets legal protection for a period of time, in return for making the information publically available. There's nothing to stop you making things for your own personal use.