The Real Reason Poverty Exists

a reply to: ketsuko

Somebody will still have to make stuff for us to live on. Food, clothing, shelter - those things do not make themselves.

Of course. But we no longer make most things. Rarely from my clothing, bedsheets, car -- electronics do I find a "made in America". Thus the reason for decreasing opportunity to work at a job that lifts you out of poverty. Let the billionaires eat their own so-called cake. It makes sense to me that has the number of employees are reduced, the remaining can be paid enough to live on.

I actually don't have a problem with the items you listed.

Can Mrs. Walton live on x number of millions per year? Does she really need a billion while her workers are trying to eke out a way to put gas in the car? Just a guess but I don't think she does. Her employees should demand a living wage. I wish every one of then would walk off the job. Oh, and the Waltons should pay for their healthcare, and stop treating their employees like they are second rate humans. They aren't. They will get away with as long as the public allows it, along with McDonald's and all the others.

a reply to: Puppylove

It will happen again, the question simply is when. As for why it will happen? Because the power hungry never seem to learn how to maintain a proper balance. Is really not that hard to do. They can easily live like kings and emperors without their subjects bathing in feces. But one palace simply isn't enough for them, they all need ten palaces and several hundred golden chariots.

I wonder about this. How much money is enough among the big players. The one percent. Once you have so much money it becomes almost meaningless (I would guess) -- I wonder if it's not based on competition. An enormous competition in which they lose compassion, generosity and empathy and their eyes set only on winning.

Maybe they want to be the first trillionnaire, although it looks like Bill Gates may get there in around 15 years. He's first in line at the moment.

a reply to: Puppylove

I feel like these posts - yours and the many nearly identical ones before this - are a blend of "Waaaah, I don't want to work every day, I just want to have fun" mixed with "Gimmegimmegimme" with a sprinkling of "I hate the man!" dashed across the top.

I almost find it offensive, to be honest. People like you think that so many things are needs when really they're just wants. Your list is the same. Health care is a luxury item, unless you're doing it alone without the services of hospitals and doctors and other people. "Basic communications"...the only right you may have is to talk with your own voice. A phone, computer, etc are not rights. Transportation? Walk. The whole education rant - ridiculous. Corps should not have to pick a "gogetter" lol. I can pay to get whatever training I want. Who are you to say that I must be "picked by a corporation" if I want certain training. And working 40 hours a week? THAT is a luxury. It used to be MUCH more barely a hundred years ago. Hell for many a 40 hour week is what you get in by Wednesday.

Also, while we're discussing your fantasy future world, where are all these "basic" services going to come from? People forced to labour to make cups and chairs and towels and TV's and houses? People forced to be your doctor and librarian? These things don't just magically appear. People work at these things.

Finally, the way you call other peoples statements "drivel" IS offensive. I'm so sick of these "give me the world free, I don't want to work" rants, which is what your post really is. A rant. The mantra of the lazy. I'll probably get a T&C for saying that but it's true. Your OP is the drivel spewed out to the other lazy people while standing on the soapbox that someone else built for you.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Ha you really don't know how economics work do you? The entire "raise the minimum wage" movement is scary. Not because people will make more money and somehow I fear that, but because somehow these people are so ignorant that raising the minimum wage will make any difference.

originally posted by: stolencar18
a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Ha you really don't know how economics work do you? The entire "raise the minimum wage" movement is scary. Not because people will make more money and somehow I fear that, but because somehow these people are so ignorant that raising the minimum wage will make any difference.

I suggest you fear it because you nothing about economics or how our country works. I'm sorry you are the person you are. Truly I am. I doubt 'those people' are any less ignorant than the fearful sentiments you express here.



You have a nice evening.

a reply to: stolencar18

Your right I don't want to work everyday, and I don't want anyone else to work everyday unless they want to. Why because we as a society no longer NEED to. If we did, I wouldn't have a leg to stand on but we don't. I don't agree with unnecessary suffering for anyone. I'm not a sociopath.

This work you're demanding from people is the exact reason so many people have no jobs, there isn't enough work for everyone to work 40 hours plus. It simply does not exist, and until we compensate for that fact, we'll never progress as a society.

THINGS ARE ALLOWED TO GET BETTER!!!! It's happened once before. Is why we have child labor laws, and once upon a time, things were much worse than they are today, but they got better because people fought for them.

I will not apologize for believing the quality of life of every human on this planet can be made better. I will never apologize for standing up for those with nothing while individuals own private islands and live in excess,

Today's world is the exception to the norm. Poverty is the basic state.

Poverty was escaped because growth exceeded population increase.

I'd go back to the industrial revolution and do a lot of research to understand what happened.

Developing countries have had much higher birth rates and generally have much more restrictive economic policy as well.
Want to end poverty, try to understand the policies that countries like south korea, taiwan, singapore, estonia, chile put into effect.
Usually implementing free market reforms are very difficult, as the results must come quickly or trade union/socialist will gain the upper hand in popular opinion. Usually because the first year or so is quite rough.
But it can be done, estonia is a good example in recent times, it is well documented and the people who did it are still alive for interview. sadly it usually takes a dictator (chile, s. korea) to tell collectivist popular opinion to lay off for a couple years and have the results speak for themselves.

The real reason for poverty is profiting off of the labor of others rather than paying people what their worth.

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Perhaps I worded that poorly - I'm NOT afraid of this. Even if it happens, which I"m sure one day it will, it won't make any difference. Pushing the bottom up pushes the rest up, and we'll all still be in the same boat we are now.

Just for the record...tell me how my statements are wrong. Go ahead. Try.
You can't legislate wealth or equality. Every increase that you are given (whether it's a mandatory minimum income that some demand, or a minimum wage hike) is offset by increased costs, whether they are in our face or buried. When a loaf of bread goes up a dime, and an apple goes up a penny, and milk goes up a nickel, and heating your home increases 50 cents, it doesn't take long until that whole "raise" you gained is gone, and you're no further ahead. The world isn't going to spike costs by 40%. The cost of everything will increase almost invisibly - a few pennies here and there - and you won't even notice that your government-given money is really worth no more than it was before. And then what happens? You demand more?

At what point will people like you and the OP start supporting yourselves and quit demanding it from others? I bust my ass to make a decent 5 figure job to support my family and I started at the absolute bottom doing the worst work and I built my way up and I'm proud to work my hours every week. I resent anyone who thinks they're entitled to start where I am, or higher, or anywhere other than at the bottom. I admire people who have climbed higher than I have, and I aspire to keep climbing. I hope the same for my children too. I hope they get their hands dirty and work. At least they will appreciate the luxuries in life when they get them, which is more than the handout generation can say.

a reply to: Puppylove

Please explain how this world you imagine would work. Who would built the things everyone "needs", and who would provide the services you say are rights? Where will things like roads and electricity and street lamps and mail services and sewer services come from? If society doesn't need work how is society going to provide these things?

Work isn't torture, and people believe in it aren't sociopaths.

For whatever it's worth, things get better when you work. The whole "there is no work" lie is just that - a lie. The truth is "there is no work that I want to do and that fits my lifestyle choices". There's LOTS of work. I don't buy the "there isn't a single job anywhere around here for me to possibly do" line. It simply isn't true. Look around you. I guarantee that in any city in America (and likely the world) I can find a job, or two, or ten. They're there. The trouble is people think they're too good to do certain things. That's sickening. People don't want to get their hands dirty or get a callous. They want jobs that pay 6 figures while they watch YouTube videos.

Your last line says it all. You're driven by jealousy and greed and want the world given to you on a platter instead of earning it.

a reply to: stolencar18

We can provide everything in this world working part time with our current population and resources. We don't need to have everyone competing for 40+ hour jobs and working three jobs.

Everyone on this planet could be provided for with minimal work better spread out amongst the people of the world. Not only that, but in doing so it will free everyone up that wants to, to be innovative and expand human knowledge and sciences.

We have more workers on this planet than we have work that needs to be done by several orders of magnitude. Only reason we aren't all provided for with minimal effort, is because of artificial scarcity and an arbitrary economic system filled with glut and corruption.

a reply to: Puppylove

But I made money in this system so it works for everyone.

a reply to: onequestion

If I hadn't seen so many of your other posts I wouldn't know you were being sarcastic.

originally posted by: Puppylove
a reply to: onequestion

If I hadn't seen so many of your other posts I wouldn't know you were being sarcastic.

I know.

And thank you for such a valuable contribution. Our current economic model is outdated by over 150 years.

a reply to: Puppylove

Really? How do you know that? Where are your sources? Just because "you think so"? How much is minimal work? What if someone works twice that much? Do they get double? Also, who are you to say that the entire world should do things your way? You're really saying that the entire planet should do things your way? "More workers...by several orders of magnitude"...are you kidding? Using what facts? what data? what sources?

You know...attitudes like yours and others in this thread are the reason that immigrants are coming into North America and taking so many full time jobs. They're willing to work hard, and they show up, and they're reliable.

a reply to: onequestion

Interesting idea.
How much are people worth? That's a serious question. No sarcasm. How much am I worth? And you? What about people who are twice as strong and work twice as hard and get twice as much done? Or people who are twice as smart? Is the work of some worth more than the work of others?

a reply to: ladyinwaiting

Do you have any opinions not driven by jealousy?

Everyone can walk off the Walmart locations, and ten million more will line up to fill the vacuum left behind. Millions of people are grateful for the Walmart jobs, the McDonalds jobs, etc. This country is so spoiled to think that work is beneath them...

a reply to: stolencar18

You really don't know when to stop do you? You are dead wrong. I have three college degrees and all the work I want.
Certainly don't need your advice or perspective. I teach at a university and run a non-profit agency, and sometimes upon request I take court cases as expert witness, and also do some consulting as per request.

"Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread".

You lack understanding of this topic to the point you don't know how much you don't know.

originally posted by: grainofsand
a reply to: gosseyn
The 'solution' in your link still requires some entity to produce the windmills and solar panels etc, and right now there are no laws prohibiting any entrepreneur from doing so.
So what are the rewards for me working harder than lazy bastards in your utopia?

Do we still have a token of exchange for goods and services? How do people pay me for my services? How do I pay for my materials and tools? Is that from your utopian government as well?

Is modern technology utopian ? Is a fully automated factory abstract ? Is 3D printing science-fiction ? Is a big supermarket full of goods an hallucination ? No. What is proposed is a shift of the means of production from the hands of the corporations to the hands of the people. As of who would pay : we already pay enough taxes to fund this, it would be enough for a good start. We go step by step.

a reply to: stolencar18

Good point and I have no answers.

In today's economic model in order to remain profitable as a business you have to have employees working for less than the value of the labor they perform or Wall Street can't show a profit for shareholders.

Let's start there.