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So you refuse to CONSENT to a drug test, they can refuse to treat you? And your fetus.

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posted on Jan, 22 2016 @ 07:19 AM
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a reply to: dawnstar

People think: "Oh if you're doing nothing wrong, you've got nothing to worry about"

B.S.

I was naive to think that once too. And my life was friggin ruined. And no one was held accountable, even though some of the actions/inactions that ruined my life were blatantly illegal. I didn't do anything wrong and I lost EVERYTHING. I lost my job, my health, my ability to ever work again, I was charged with a crime I didn't commit and they waited 2 YEARS to drop the case- no apology, no refund of my money, no way to give me back my time, and they didn't even try to charge the guy who was actually guilty.

Sorry guys, you can't trust the system. If you're at all smart you should avoid it altogether or watch out for yourself very closely if you ever come in contact with it (medical/LE) because they sure as hell aren't looking out for you.




posted on Jan, 22 2016 @ 09:03 AM
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a reply to: ladyvalkyrie
ya, I've had similar experiences. the last doctor I seen was the one social security sent me to when I applied for disability, which thank god he gave it to me. before him, I think it was something like two or three years since I seen one. I got so disgusted with them, first it was my feet, and about two years of playing their game, getting tests, and well, that ended when I got tired of falling at work, or walking to and from my car, or getting up out of bed just to fall... then it was a hernia that wasn't a hernia, so a whole mess of other tests, till I told them I wanted to see another doctor and well, he had a simple way to tell it was a hernia. oh ya, and I had a separate insurance policy that would have reimbursed me for time I took off work for some of this, and well, the doctor wouldn't even take the time out to fill out the paperwork, thus the falling down at work, walking through the shop clinging to crap as much as I could.... heck I even had trouble getting them give me a doctor's note setting some limitations on what I could do. had to work, needed the money, needed the insurance, but here I was spending more (even with the insurance) and they couldn't even write a danged not telling the boss that I really shouldn't be lifting a ton or so of magnetic stock throughout the day, or pulling that ton or so of stock through the shop to the press.
no thanks, they can keep their healthcare now and leave me the heck alone. my body, my pain, and my decisions as to how I treat it, what I eat, ect.



posted on Jan, 22 2016 @ 09:52 AM
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a reply to: dawnstar

If I could go the rest of my life without seeing another doctor I could die happy. Unfortunately somebody's going to have to cut this baby out of me.

Maybe I could do it myself: "C Sections for Dummies" Lol!




posted on Jan, 22 2016 @ 09:57 AM
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a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

just get the daddy to do it, I mean, you're taking care of the hard part, let him put some effort into it....lol...



posted on Jan, 27 2016 @ 10:29 PM
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originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: FredT
* and i"m sure you get it, but the drug test isn't what I had a problem with, it was the fact that they were openly acting as agents of law enforcement without following the guidelines of such (warrants/probable cause)


here is where it gets dicey IMHO. Based on that scenario, I think if they took the test and say you tested positive for a controlled substance, It may be a direct violation of your HIPPA rights if they then made a call to law enforcement and reported the results based on you getting getting "non-emergent" care in an clinic or outpatient type setting. As noted its a different story if say you are brought in by EMS having caused an accident and you test positive etc. I have put in an inquiry to our compliance people to see what they think of it. (I totally preserved your HIPPA rights BTW and used no unique identifiers)

This link is one from an Oregon Health Care System and is a general primer on what staff can and cannot do in regards to HIPPA and law enforcement. I caution you however that it is their interpretation and there can be some variance.
www.oahhs.org...



posted on Feb, 2 2016 @ 08:48 AM
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a reply to: FredT

I actually got a phone call from the Texas Medical Board, so between that and my research in the course of this thread here's the situation as best as I can describe it:

1. ONLY ER doctors are bound by law to treat a patient. Any other private practice doctor can refuse service at any time for any (or no) reason.
2. Along those same lines, private docs can make up whatever rules they want. (which is fine, free market and all)
3. The consent form that irked me is not required by law, nor is is banned by law.
4. Doctors and medical staff have a duty to report. So, if you come up positive for a drug test they could try to be cool and counsel you about it, try to help you through it...but they're way more likely to cover their own ass and turn you in.
5. HIPPA is out the window (see #4)
6. As I brought up in a previous post, if a LE officer obtains evidence illegally (without a warrant) the whole case can be thrown out. But Joe Blow (or Dr. Joe Blow) can obtain evidence any way he wants and it stands. Plus, CPS operates under a whole other set of rules so no matter where they get their allegations or evidence it's doubtful that anything can/will be 'thrown out'. Now MAYBE if they pursue criminal charges and you hire a good lawyer they can get the charges dropped if the evidence was illegally gained.
7. I guess it's good that this one doc is up front and honest about his intentions. Apparently most docs just secretly drug test you without your consent. Like the second doc I went to, he didn't have a consent form like that. But at the first visit they took urine and blood without telling me what they were testing for at all. They very possibly (probably, since I'm a new patient) drug tested me WITHOUT my consent or even telling me that's what they were doing.

It's bad enough that the 'care' is pretty much gone from health care. Doctors don't bother getting to know each patient individually and tailor their approach to each. They go down their checklist and push the latest drug that they've been bribed by their local pharma rep. But it really makes me sick that they're acting as agents of law enforcement too. Medicine and LE have no business being in bed together. With the exception of seriously threatening to kill someone (with the doctor reporting that threat, obviously) the confidentiality between doctor and patient needs to be intact.



posted on Feb, 2 2016 @ 09:00 AM
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a reply to: FredT


2. Mandatory Reporting to Law Enforcement. You must disclose patient information to
law enforcement in the following situations:
o Driver involved in an MVA with lab test results indicating blood alcohol level that
meets or exceeds legal limit, or presence of a controlled substance.
o Suspected child abuse and neglect, suspected abuse and neglect of the elderly.
o Suspected abuse of mentally disabled persons.
o Physical injury caused by a knife, gun, pistol or other deadly weapon.
o Death believed to be the result of criminal conduct.


See, they would say it falls under 'child abuse'. But...
1. not every drug actually causes defects
2. there may be a level of drug enough to test positive, but not enough to cause a defect
3. they would include prescription drugs, which the pregnant woman does not have a prescription for, even though if prescribed by a doctor the drug would be safe
4. fear of prosecution will cause addicts to avoid prenatal care altogether, which is the worst possible outcome
5. the stress of a CPS/LE investigation would harm the fetus AND make an addict MORE inclined to use
6. What if it's a false positive? Do they re-test and confirm or just turn you over immediately?
7. these kinds of policies basically force patients to lie and hide pertinent information from their doctor, when (if honest) they could be receiving help

I just think there are more compassionate ways to address the issue than to threaten to take away someone's kids or lock them up in jail.

And I'm drug free, but I'm stubborn as hell and I can't stand someone telling me "You HAVE to do this, or else." Lol!



posted on Feb, 2 2016 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

wonder if doctors test the daddies also, and well, turn the positive results of those over to law enforcement? I do believe it's child abuse to use drugs in the presence of children, and well, a positive drug test would be reason to be suspicious that this might be happening?



posted on Feb, 2 2016 @ 04:33 PM
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go ahead and hate me all you want for this....I am posting this calmly and rationally I can promise you

I am honestly amazed at some of the accusations you are throwing

1. This is NOT unconstitutional. This isn't some illegal search and seizure. The doctor didn't come to you, force medical care on you then make you commit to a urine/blood test for drugs. You can, and have made a decision to go elsewhere. I am for personal freedoms to a great extent. If you want to go without a drug test then hey have at it. But don't fly the unconstitutional flag...please...This is a choice to go to a specialist for medical care that you made and you did not like the resulting REQUEST...not demand...It is a request...because per their policy, to treat you they want to make sure safety is guaranteed

2. Your police pulling you over scenario asking for a search is also not applicable. That is invasion without cause. This is a doctor refusing treatment because they want to be safe with you well aware and now setup to go to another doctor

3. You state that you have PTSD and I have no reason to doubt you one bit. But don't blame the doctor for a panic attack. This was a conscious and absolutely valid and reasonable choice you made. If you had a panic attack then I am so sorry that happened but please remember that as tough a pill it is to swallow...you exacerbated this.

4. Legalities and covering your ass as an MD/DO is nothing new and I don't blame them. People are so sue happy these days it is ridiculous..PS...I am not suggesting you are sueing...just backing up the point of the doctor's policy

5. I don't know if it was mentioned but in many hospitals/ER's there is a policy to check blood and BAC for all emergency visits. Difference is, in their case if the ER fails to assess you because you refused a drug screen then that results in an EMTALA. A prenatal OB appointment is not an emergency

6. Finally...and this is the one I can't fathom...why are you or others not in agreement that an OB wants to do what is medically best for an unborn child and you for that matter? Yes I absolutely believe that you are drug free and good for you I might add! But that's even more baffling to me! You have nothing to worry about at all and yet you are raising such an ire as to sending mail about something you CHOSE to do or not do. But putting that aside, I do agree that you have the choice. I can't fathom going to a doctor who could care less if people are using ESPECIALLY when it's an OB appointment where a second upcoming life is involved. If I were an MD, I would absolutely refuse to treat you. Nobody knows what you are taking and you (I mean 'you' in a general sense) can easily lie. Substance users do it constantly.

So the doctor wants to be safe and provide the safest treatment he/she can. That's a problem? And don't give me the whole "my first two babies are perfect" thing because while again, I absolutely believe you that they are in great health, two healthy babies do not come even close to causality that a third baby will be healthy. Maybe in between then and now a mother found an addiction. Maybe in between then and now, a million physical and emotional things have changed.

I know you probably think otherwise and believe me I am ready and waiting for the onslaught in my return but this post was 100% calm and rational.

I just cannot fathom why at the very least, point 6 is not a concern

good day



posted on Feb, 2 2016 @ 04:36 PM
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originally posted by: ladyvalkyrie
a reply to: FredT


2. Mandatory Reporting to Law Enforcement. You must disclose patient information to
law enforcement in the following situations:
o Driver involved in an MVA with lab test results indicating blood alcohol level that
meets or exceeds legal limit, or presence of a controlled substance.
o Suspected child abuse and neglect, suspected abuse and neglect of the elderly.
o Suspected abuse of mentally disabled persons.
o Physical injury caused by a knife, gun, pistol or other deadly weapon.
o Death believed to be the result of criminal conduct.


See, they would say it falls under 'child abuse'. But...
1. not every drug actually causes defects
2. there may be a level of drug enough to test positive, but not enough to cause a defect
3. they would include prescription drugs, which the pregnant woman does not have a prescription for, even though if prescribed by a doctor the drug would be safe
4. fear of prosecution will cause addicts to avoid prenatal care altogether, which is the worst possible outcome
5. the stress of a CPS/LE investigation would harm the fetus AND make an addict MORE inclined to use
6. What if it's a false positive? Do they re-test and confirm or just turn you over immediately?
7. these kinds of policies basically force patients to lie and hide pertinent information from their doctor, when (if honest) they could be receiving help

I just think there are more compassionate ways to address the issue than to threaten to take away someone's kids or lock them up in jail.

And I'm drug free, but I'm stubborn as hell and I can't stand someone telling me "You HAVE to do this, or else." Lol!


Just a couple hits...

1. and plenty of others do....doctors want to be safe for soon to be baby
2 and 6. You can always request a test. A stick has been false positive before. When you put the urine in the proper machine it will break it down hardcore for you.
4. But you're ok if the addicted mother keeps on hitting her drug of choice?
5. Which as much as I hate to admit it, the addict brought on herself.
7. Just stop....a policy does not FORCE a person to lie. People have straight admitted to murder when police arrive on scene. A policy in place does not MAKE someone lie. A person makes that decision to be dishonest



posted on Feb, 3 2016 @ 12:44 PM
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a reply to: KyoZero

No onslaught here. I agree with you for the most part.

It's not technically unconstitutional because it is a requirement made by a private business and you can always go elsewhere. However...the 5th Amendment says that you can't be forced to testify or give evidence against yourself, so if you KNOW it's something to be used for LE purposes you should be able to refuse.

My entire problem with this whole scenario is the link between doctor and LE. It's not about the health of the mother or the fetus, it's about collecting evidence to be used in prosecution in a court of law. I think a more fair approach would be to test...but then have the doctor counsel and try to treat the mother BEFORE going to CPS. A 3 strikes you're out kind of thing. The way things are set up now addicts are afraid to seek help because they're afraid of having their unborn child, or any other children taken away and/or criminally charged. It's completely counterproductive. I mean, has threat of prosecution EVER deterred anyone from doing drugs?

As I'm finding out in the course of this thread, at least the 1st doc had the juevos to actually come out and be upfront about what he's doing. It turns out that probably all doctors are doing this, without consent, and turning people over left and right to LE. THAT is BS. Just because I'm pregnant doesn't mean that my rights don't exist anymore.

What if doctors drug tested EVERYONE who came in for ANYTHING with no probable cause and if a test came back positive they called the cops out to arrest you for Public Intoxication or DUI (if you drove yourself)? Would everyone be ok with that? I mean, you could use the same logic...you could be endangering other people on the road or in public, and drugs are illegal so you shouldn't be doing them anyway.

I'm all for good prenatal care and healthy babies, I just think the way things are set up is BS. There's way more fair and effective ways to go about it. And I really don't appreciate being treated like a criminal and having a doctor reporting back to LE when I'm just trying to do the right thing and get prenatal care like you're supposed to.

I mean, friggin parolees have to piss test for the state...so now just because I'm pregnant I'm on lock down like a parolee? THAT is my problem- it's not for the doctor, it's not for my health....it's to prosecute people. Thus, it should fall under LE laws- warrants, probable cause, etc.



posted on Feb, 3 2016 @ 12:52 PM
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originally posted by: KyoZero
7. Just stop....a policy does not FORCE a person to lie. People have straight admitted to murder when police arrive on scene. A policy in place does not MAKE someone lie. A person makes that decision to be dishonest


Pregnant addict goes to the doctor. Questionnaire asks if she uses illegal drugs. If she is honest and says 'yes' the doctor turns her over to CPS, who will possibly take her unborn child away, plus any other kids she has at home AND possibly put criminal charges on her. So she lies and says 'no'.

Yeah, you're right a policy doesn't MAKE a person lie, but it sure can sway them in that direction.

If the threat of prosecution was removed and she felt she had trust and confidentiality with the doctor, then she could be honest and say 'yes'. At which point the doctor could counsel her on safer alternatives or refer her to a rehab program. IF they went through ALL that and she continued to use, then even I would advocate for putting her in an inpatient program. But threat of prosecution shouldn't be Step 1 in the process and people should feel free to be honest with their doctors.



posted on Feb, 3 2016 @ 05:44 PM
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a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

understandable

btw...I really do wish you the best...I have not more to say :-)

be well



posted on Feb, 3 2016 @ 05:59 PM
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OP...Here's some more truth for you.

For chronic pain they test you 4-5 times per year.

They check the prescribed drugs are in your system and snoop for other stuff.

We have no choice. Here's what my last bill looked like.

Office Call. $93.00
Drug Screen $626.00

If something looks wrong they will do the $1600.00 test.

I got my Doc to remove the THC part of the drug screen. So, there was that.

Doc said these are requirements in Obamacare. They all invested in these companies.

Another scam...Now if they suspected something OK, but mandatory?

Sorry you have to endure their BS...



posted on Feb, 4 2016 @ 08:21 AM
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a reply to: whyamIhere

That sucks, but just like drug testing pregnant women I can understand why they do it. The difference is, not only do they test- and bill- pregnant women, but then they turn you over to the laws.

At least if something comes up wrong with a pain management drug screen you don't have to worry about your kids getting taken away, your home being inspected by the government, everyone you know being interviewed and possibly facing criminal charges.

Not trying to one-up you, the whole system sucks. Always gotta be some d-bags ruining things for everyone!

edit on 4-2-2016 by ladyvalkyrie because: (no reason given)



posted on Feb, 4 2016 @ 08:34 AM
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a reply to: KyoZero
Thanks for joining in the fun! I love a bit of open discussion and you made a lot of good points. And even though it seems like I'm arguing with my detractors, I can totally understand WHY people (the doctor included) thinks this is a good idea. Everyone loves a baby and no one wants to see one with deformities or developmental delays that could have been avoided. I just think there's more effective ways to go about it that don't infringe on MY right to privacy.

Not sure how long they've been drug testing all women seeking prenatal care and turning them into CPS, but...


There was a five-fold increase in the proportion of babies born with NAS (neonatal abstinence syndrome- withdrawal) from 2000 to 2012

...it's clearly not working.
Sou rce

Here's what the American Medical Association, Journal of Ethics has to say about it:


The Supreme Court recognizes that a physician's duty is to provide sound medical treatment to his patient, not to act as an extension of law enforcement. Physicians serve medical—not legal—roles in the treatment of pregnant women. Health care professionals who act on behalf of the state rather than for their patients breach the ethical duties of the patient-physician relationship. Such a breach erodes confidence and trust in the medical community, resulting in poor disclosure by patients, which, in turn, may dramatically reduce the efficacy of diagnosis and treatment.

Source



posted on Feb, 4 2016 @ 11:30 AM
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do what we did for 3 of our kids. Dont see a doctor until you go into labor. I mean humans have only come this far without the NEED of expensive trips for thousands of years now. As long as your insured your fine. Just show up "heres my insurance!" and bam! baby.

What the blood clot?! Actually saved us money.



posted on Feb, 10 2016 @ 12:55 PM
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a reply to: AmericanRealist
This will work except where they do a drug screen at labor and delivery. Some even go so far as to check the baby's first stool- because after roughly 12 weeks in the pregnancy (depending on the source - some say a few weeks later), any illegal substance can be stored there and tested. This used to be standard only for women who presented signs of drug use.



posted on Feb, 11 2016 @ 02:59 PM
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a reply to: chelsdh

As I've found during the course of this thread, at least the doctor I had issue with is being honest about it. It turns out that pretty much ALL OBGYNs drug test without even asking consent. At the very least, at the first appointment and close to the due date. Some may even do it more often than that.

And I think it's pretty routine for ALL labor and delivery to drug test. Definitely if you don't have an attending physician who has cleared your admittance prior to your arrival. Like with my last, I got excellent prenatal care from a midwife, but that doesn't count and they drug tested me without my consent.

If it were truly for medical purposes only, I would have no issue with it. But as an extension of law enforcement?

Now there's a thread about mandatory depression tests.
ATS Depression Thread
And if you fail that, you go into a database and aren't allowed to (legally) buy guns. Or, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, the doctor asked my 96 yo grandmother if she owned a gun. Where does that info go? Healthcare and law enforcement have no business being in bed together. This is super effed up and just seems to be getting worse.

Everybody is ok with throwing a pregnant woman under the bus for 'the sake of the baby' (even if no harm is actually done) but look at the pages of bitching that happens when TPTB try to come after the guns! Lol!



posted on Feb, 11 2016 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: ladyvalkyrie

It does seem like they are picking small groups of people, and using justifications that the majority will buy, stripping them of a right. Testing the water and setting precedents. If they can throw a women in jail for testing positive on a drug test - to protect her unborn child... What is stopping them from turning to their attention to other activities that might harm that child and expanding their aim beyond the pregnant women or beyond just those 9 months of preganancy? I mean that there are things we could do long before any child child is conceived that might effect your yet to be conceived child. Then there's that nice father to be, who called his pregnant ex and got her so upset that she passed out on the stairs (there is probably a greater likelihood that this happened than she threw herself down a flight of starts to induce a miscarraige). She was jailed, maybe he should have been also for the part he played in it.

but, I highly doubt it will stop with just the drug tests, and where is will go to should be a concern for both males and females.



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