It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

POLITICS: Get Over It!

page: 3
0
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 12:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by soficrow
...The problem won't be solved at all if it's not acknowledged - or if it's consistently reduced to the level of a Grade 6 popularity contest.

We're looking to protect democracy here. Thinking this can happen without broad-based dialogue is short-sighted. Thinking it might happen without passionate commitment is wishful.

soficrow
You're right, the problem won't be solved unless it is acknowledged. But this is where you get off track - who is saying that there is not a problem? Both sides - Republican and Democrat _ acknowledge that there is a problem. But re-doing, or re-voting - this last election is just not going to happen, you know that. And the overwhelming majority of Americans don't want it to be re-voted. That would just cause confusion and division. You can't just re-vote Ohio. Why not Texas? Or Minnesota. too?

The way to approach it is to work towards fixing the system, starting from this point forward.

And it would go a long way towards a positive resolution if people would stop applying these silly labels of "Neo-con" or "Liberal" . There are no such parties. There are, however Republicans and Democrats, for those who have a need to have a label to stick on someone.




posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 11:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib

You are trying to destroy my argument by making a patronizing analogy,


You did not make an argument - you made a claim:



We are protecting our republic...recounts were done


Your claim above contradicted an earlier statement you made:



" I am not saying not to do anything, but thinking the problem will be solved easily is foolhardy.


I did not mean to patronize you - I meant to chastize you: You can't have it both ways. Please, pick one - either the problem is solved OR the problem is complicated and will require concerted attention.

Personally, I do NOT think the problem is solved - the voting system needs to be revamped, voting machines need to be repaired, computerized machines need to be radically changed or removed. ...The problem is a systems problem, and requires a MUCH broader perspective and analysis.

The real difficulty for Republicans who see the problems with the system and honestly want to work to protect democracy is that once they admit there are problems with our voting machinery, then it follows logically that the last election results are in question. ...I am not sure what to do about this box - I just want discussion to move forward on both sides without name-calling and with minimal partisanship.



.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 12:52 PM
link   
There have been problems with every election even before 2004....you want to have a re-election for all those too?...


You people were asking pretty much for the same thing in 2000, yet most states were not using the system that is in use now. The fact is that you do not want to concede, no matter what, that Bush won once more, you don't want to admit it even when Kerry admitted with his 10,000 lawyers that Bush won.

You don't think that Kerry's 10,000 force of lawyers would have thought about the same problem with the machines that you are talking about? You don't think that 10,000 lawyers, which quite a few I am sure are liberals would have made sure to find evidence that if the tampering which was done in the 2004 elections were the cause why Bush won they would have presented this information and would have said so?.... yet where is it? Where is Kerry saying that they have found that Bush won because of voter fraud? Who is suing who for voter fraud? NADER IS SUING KERRY FOR VOTER FRAUD. All you present are sites which have a propaganda and goal of their own, and do not want the present administration to be in office.

Yes, there was tampering, most of which was found just like it happens in every election, and it has been found even with the system which you say is so flawed, yet Kerry has conceded that even with the voter fraud that has happened in 2004, just like the voter fraud that has happened in years past, Bush won.

There was voter fraud when Clinton, and every other democrat president was in office also, and even at the scale that is happening now yet were there any re-elections done?....

---BTW, i am not yelling above, but posting in caps and in bold who is being sued for voter fraud by another presidential candidate, one that is neither republican or democrat. Just a reminder of who is suing who.----

[edit on 10-1-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 01:16 PM
link   
I don't think Democrats should "Get Over It" because that way, they'll still think that their ideas are those preferred by the American people, they'll do nothing to fix their party, and they'll still provide plenty of entertainment while the Republicans will just keep winning, winning and winning elections.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 01:25 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kidfinger
Well, if you have nothing to lose, then whats the problem?


Sure Kidfinger, let's have a recount, in fact let's have a recount for every democrat and liberal that is in office right now, I mean there is voter fraud, most of them must be in there because they won through fraud. Let's have a recount and see why so many Californians voted for "The Terminator" to be in office. I mean, you have got to be kidding, noone in their right mind would have voted for "The Terminator" to be governor of California....

kidfinger, so you want to put up the money and work the hours to do a recount, for the what? 10 times? 20 times? 100 times?...what happens when the votes once more are not for Kerry? another recount Kidfinger? ok, let's go along with you and let's have another recount..... i mean we have to make you happy right?......



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 01:31 PM
link   

Originally posted by soficrow

I'd like to see everyone who thinks it doesn't matter write a letter to our founding fathers explaining why, and telling them they wasted their time.


Wow....hold your horses there.... You want people to write a letter to the founding fathers? and ask them if they think they wasted their time?.....


Do you expect an anwser?....


Hey, meanwhile we wait for an anwser from the founding fathers, let's also write to elvis and see how he is doing......


You just made my day soficrow..... i just noticed that post now, it's a bad habit i have. i normally just read the last posts in a thread if i find it interesting i read what was said before...i am glad i did....at least in this case....




[edit on 10-1-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 01:55 PM
link   

Originally posted by jsobecky

You're right, the problem won't be solved unless it is acknowledged. ...who is saying that there is not a problem?
...The way to approach it is to work towards fixing the system, starting from this point forward.




Originally posted by Maudib
" I am not saying not to do anything, but thinking the problem will be solved easily is foolhardy.



jsobecky and maudib agreed there is a problem - and agreed it needs to fixed - but then they started backpedalling and claiming "everyone else does it too," "it's not his fault" and "it never happened anyway." The Bush refrain.

...I've been biting my tongue and hitting delete to avoid getting into the popularity thing. It takes a lot of effort. I'm independent and while some of my best friends are Republicans, Bush scares the bejeezus outta me. I fear for democracy under his leadership. The man has no respect for democracy, the American Constitution, Bill of Rights or Legal System.

Bush is here now. He has the power to destroy democracy and he's using it. Clinton is old news. Get over it.

So, jsobecky and maudib, we can discuss how to fix the voting system - or we can play it your way, and rip Bush. Either way, I'm game.



.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 02:09 PM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib

You just made my day soficrow.....




Glad you appreciate my sense of humor Maudib - it usually takes a Brit to pick up on it cuz it's so dry


.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 03:04 PM
link   
There are still way too many posts about Bush, Kerry, Republicans, Democrats offering not enough by way of solution to the problem of fraud and corruption.

Some things will not change in a hurry. That is the way that dumbing down is meant to work.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 03:41 PM
link   

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by jsobecky

You're right, the problem won't be solved unless it is acknowledged. ...who is saying that there is not a problem?
...The way to approach it is to work towards fixing the system, starting from this point forward.


jsobecky and maudib agreed there is a problem - and agreed it needs to fixed - but then they started backpedalling and claiming "everyone else does it too," "it's not his fault" and "it never happened anyway." The Bush refrain.

Where do you see me backpedaling? I said there was a problem, let's work to fix it. You don't want to hear that. You want to hear "There's a problem, let's get rid of Bush." Guess who's gonna win that one in the real world, where it counts?



So, jsobecky and maudib, we can discuss how to fix the voting system - or we can play it your way, and rip Bush. Either way, I'm game.

What are you talking about, rip Bush? That's your game, not mine.

You just admitted that you're not interested in election reform, you just want Bush out of office. Otherwise, you would accept the facts and move forward. You don't want to do that - you're stuck. Cognitive dissonance, it's called.

I've tried to be reasonable, but it doesn't work. Next thing you know, I'll be accused of advocating voter fraud, like some pinhead tried to say I was in another thread.

When you're ready to talk about ways to fix the problem, I'll be around.



posted on Jan, 10 2005 @ 07:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by jsobecky

Where do you see me backpedaling? I said there was a problem, let's work to fix it.

When you're ready to talk about ways to fix the problem, I'll be around.



jsobecky - sorry - I read the 2 posts following my plea for reason, and didn't click that they were both from Maudib (thought one was yours).

....The only way we can talk about reforming the election system is to avoid talking parties and leaders. ...There are plenty of other threads where that will happen.

...Also, I posted several links to sites where people are talking about dealing with the problems in a variety of ways. Anyone check any of them out yet?



.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 01:34 AM
link   


Muadib says: let's also write to elvis and see how he is doing......


Elvis? Do you expect an answer?

The point is the validity of the election. That your candidate "won" is beside the point. Speaking in support of the result doesn't address the issue. Validity of the election is a serious issue. If the White House is occupied by a President who in reality did not receive enough votes to have put him there, then we are no longer residing in a Democratic Repulic. Ponder the implications of that. If that is what happened, has a road map been laid for the next go-around?



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 02:31 AM
link   

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Umm...... It happens to be a game I am playing right now so it is fresh on my mind. And the analogy fits. Play the game and see.


No it doesn't fit...it is a fantasy or sci-fi game if you don't know the difference between real life and a game you need help....

BTW, no thank you, I prefer to make an informed choice by what happens in real life rather than what happens in a computer game.


[edit on 11-1-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 02:36 AM
link   

Originally posted by dubiousone



Muadib says: let's also write to elvis and see how he is doing......


Elvis? Do you expect an answer?


You should know that it was a joke..........
but no matter, i know some people are slow at getting a joke.


[edit on 11-1-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 06:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib
another recount Kidfinger? ok, let's go along with you and let's have another recount..... i mean we have to make you happy right?......


Please take your slow witted sarcasm elswhere. Its not about making me happy
Its about preserving Democracy in its self. Its about preserving the freedoms that make us American. I guess these things mean nothing to you. I guess true democracy has no bearing on your life sonce you are on the side that is pulling all the bull# just to stay in office. Muadib, you dont know me very well. I would be calling for an investigation and everything else if Kerry won and voting fraud was suspected. Now please, if you want to reply t this, do it in a manner above sixth grade wit.

[edit on 1/11/05 by Kidfinger]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 07:14 AM
link   
An old precinct boss told me how easy it was to nullify your paper ballot vote. If you voted for A, all he had to do was mark your ballot with a vote for B. It looked like you voted for both candidates. Your vote got tossed.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 07:34 AM
link   
yes, we should all just get over it!! we are after all, just a bunch of lazy americans, and well, this will all lead to an easier lifestyle, with less responisbility to worry about in a few years....WHEN THE DANGED COMPUTERS VOTE FOR YOU, and you are told to just stay home.....the great cyber god already knows who you want to be elected!!!

We should be investigating some of these problems, we should be making sure there is a paper trail to fall back on, and we should be seriously considering just the idea that the electoral college might be little outdated.
We pay good money, more than most of us make, to these clowns to do their jobs, and well, if they can't take on the job of assuring the public the the results of their votes are as ACCURATE AS POSSIBLY CAN BE, well, they shouldn't be there. The voting process is the core of our government, if it's been compromised, our democracy is in serious danger.

NO SOLDIER SERVING IN OUR ARMED FORCES SHOULD EVER HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THEIR VOTE NOT BEING COUNTED....and this happened in 2000, some of the idiots wanted their votes not to count, based on some stupid rule.....they need to fix it.



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 12:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Please take your slow witted sarcasm elswhere. Its not about making me happy
Its about preserving Democracy in its self.
............


I wouldn't be using any sarcasm if you would offer a good argument instead of making analogies of real life through a game, or crying wolf that Liberals, Democrats, Greens etc are being put in jail by the evil Republicans when making protests. In fact it doesn't matter if you are Republican, Democrat, Liberal, etc, if you break the law you will be detained. Although sometimes people misuse the law for their own agenda.

There is more to free speech than just being able to gather a group whenever you like, and do whatever you like, wherever you want, demonstrating your unbound freedom to your heart's content, you could be infringing on other people's freedom of speech, and worse you could have two opposing groups resorting to violence as they try to make each other's point of view heard.

If you want to demonstrate and even riot anytime you want, you are better off finding yourself a country that is an anarchy and not a Republic.

Let me give you an example of Republicans being arrested because according to Liberals they were infringing on their freedoms, these Republicans were arrested even though they did not resort to violence.


Apparently, the city of Philadelphia has completely shrugged off their Christian roots as well as lost all of their collective common sense. That city's district attorney's office has filed charges against four Christian activists and if convicted, the men are facing a total of 47 years in prison. Their crime...reading Scripture during a homosexual event known as "Outfest."

The four men (Michael Marcavage, Mark Diener, James Cruse, and Dennis Green) are members of a Christian group called Repent America. They were arrested on Oct. 10, 2004 during "Outfest."

Michael Marcavage who is the director of Repent America, is charged with criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation, and riot--all three are felonies. He was also charged with five misdemeanors for quoting Bible Scripture on public property (the sidewalk).

Mark Diener and James Cruse are both charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct, and obstructing highways.

Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct, and obstruction of highways.


Excerpted from.
www.americandaily.com...

Now, meanwhile i do agree that gays, homosexuals, etc have a right to demonstrate, what their attorneys are doing in this case, with the consent of the homosexuals, gays etc, is just too much. BTW, i am in no way affiliated with any of these groups, but it is a good example that even Republicans can be jailed for doing the things Liberals, Greens, Democrats and others keep saying is being unjustly done only to them.



[edit on 11-1-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 12:28 PM
link   
Now, going back to the topic at hand, please do show me, with proof, an election in the US when there was no voter fraud at all. Even with paper ballots, leaving a paper trail it is mightly easy to make fraud, look at what happened in the Ukraine. They were not using the Diebold machines, but the old papertrail voting system, and there was more widespread fraud than in the US.

Now, "some" people are calling for president Bush to be taken out from office because there was fraud.....simply put, it is not going to happen, just like when Clinton was chosen and there was voter fraud, he was not taken from office...that is what we are saying that you should get over.....

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I have seen most members, or at least those that responded to this thread, know that something must be done to at least try to stop voter fraud...we just disagree on what must be done.

---edited for errors---

[edit on 11-1-2005 by Muaddib]



posted on Jan, 11 2005 @ 01:22 PM
link   

Originally posted by Muaddib

I wouldn't be using any sarcasm if you would offer a good argument instead of making analogies of real life through a game,


It was an ANALOGY!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jesus man! Is this the best you can do? Look at the message it conveyed. That is what an anaolgy does. It compares seprate situations and compares thier relative similarities. Can you grasp that? It doesnt appear so.



There is more to free speech than just being able to gather a group whenever you like, and do whatever you like, wherever you want, demonstrating your unbound freedom to your heart's content, you could be infringing on other people's freedom of speech, and worse you could have two opposing groups resorting to violence as they try to make each other's point of view heard.


I agree that you should not be able to trample on others rights while exercising your own. However, what do you do when you feel it is your rights being trampled on by someone else, then you speak up about it, and they arrest you for it? Is it becoming clearer yet? Your arguments are not even valid here.



If you want to demonstrate .................you are better off finding yourself a country that is an anarchy and not a Republic.

It is in our constitution that we have the right to peacfull protest. Why should I live in an Anarchist state if a Democratic State affords me this right as well? Agian, your arguments hold no relavence here.



Let me give you an example of Republicans being arrested because according to Liberals they were infringing on their freedoms, these Republicans were arrested even though they did not resort to violence.


Now lets look at what they were charged for.




Michael Marcavage who is the director of Repent America, is charged with criminal conspiracy, ethnic intimidation, and riot--all three are felonies. He was also charged with five misdemeanors for quoting Bible Scripture on public property (the sidewalk).

Mark Diener and James Cruse are both charged with criminal conspiracy, failure to disperse, disorderly conduct, and obstructing highways.

Dennis Green is charged with criminal conspiracy, disorderly conduct, and obstruction of highways.





..................... but it is a good example that even Republicans can be jailed for doing the things Liberals, Greens, Democrats and others keep saying is being unjustly done only to them.


They were apparently doing a little more then just reading maud. It sounds like they resisted arrest, and were probably reading some verse out of the bible that condemend gays and lesbians.
You have to do better than that.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1  2    4 >>

log in

join