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POLITICS: Get Over It!

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posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:21 PM
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On the heels of the Ukraine's historical election, the US Senate refused to investigate alleged US election irregularities. "Get over it!" said Rep. Ric Keller (R-Florida). While the advice failed to influence politics in the Ukraine, it was accepted by voters in the USA.

 



www.wired.com
"Democrats turned Congress' quadrennial counting of electoral votes Thursday into a battle over Election Day problems in Ohio, forcing the House and Senate to consider a challenge to the presidential count for only the second time since 1877.

Boxer, Tubbs Jones and several other Democrats, including many black lawmakers, tried using the sessions to underscore the missing voting machines, unusually long lines and other problems that plagued some Ohio districts, many in minority neighborhoods, on Nov. 2.

"If they were willing to stand in polls for countless hours in the rain, as many did in Ohio, then I can surely stand up for them here in the halls of Congress," Tubbs Jones said.

..."Get over it," said Rep. Ric Keller (R-Florida). ...President Bush's re-election triumph over Sen. John Kerry (D-Massachusetts) was not in jeopardy."



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


Over the past months, numerous Americans echoed Republican Ric Keller's refrain. "Get over it!" is a common US response to demands for vote recounts, voting machine removal and election reform.

The democratic republic of the USA is now dismantled as a result of partisanship and apathy, according to many pundits. Following the election fiasco and the Senate's refusal to investigate US election regularities, some advocate civil war. Alternately, the Internet is blossoming with overviews, analyses and other solutions. The following links provide a brief introduction to current alternative thinking.


Related News Links:
www.gangsofamerica.com
www.takebackcontrol.org
www.corporations.org
www.localcurrency.org

Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
www.ex.ac.uk...
www.openmoney.org...
www.corporations.org...

[edit on 7-1-2005 by Banshee]




posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:32 PM
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as posted by soficrow
...some advocate civil war.



"Some" referes to who and whom?
You mean like those Democrats that also advocated and then took this country into a Civil War in 1861?


Not likely....




seekerof



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:40 PM
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I love the White House press release comment on the Ohio debacle.



The case resembles a poorly drafted script for a late night conspiracy-theory movie.


So they find disenfranchisement of voters in Ohio akin to an X-file episode? Well thanks for the insensitive statement big brother! By the way, which episode would that be? Is it the episode where Mulder Scully finds no WMDs, or the one where they forge documents misleading our nation into war?

Neocons.. pffft



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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Yes....get over it... I wish the DNC and democratic politicians would see that this turns away more voters then it does grab. That is exactly the reason my best friend and I voted Bush this year. Its sickening to see our leaders playing like kids over who lost or won...I have to say I admire Kerry alot more now though, he has not been at the front of all the nonsense. If the party ever stops whining and he were to run I might would actually vote for him....



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof

as posted by soficrow
...some advocate civil war.


"Some" referes to who and whom?



For example, the "civil war" thread here at ats.


.



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:49 PM
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Get over it? Get over the destruction of our democratic process? Sure. Why not? Sounds like the congenial thing to do. After all, Republicans aren't complaining. So why should anyone else. Why, we should be getting used to this by now. Second time in a row it's happened! Must be God's plan. Or maybe there's a non-violent insurrection occurring right here at home. At least no physical violence. Just a violent rending of the foundations of this democratic republic. That's all. Nothing that should ruffle your feathers.

Someone (not me) has compiled a list of resource links for those to care learn more about what happened in the 2004 presidential election. The author asks that it be disseminated far and wide. What follows is the list and the author's comments and pleas:

1. So far, there is no federal regulatory authority or oversight of the U.S. voting machine industry.
www.commondreams.org...
www.onlinejournal.com...

2. 80% of all votes in America are counted by only two voting machine companies: Diebold and ES&S.
www.onlinejournal.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.essvote.com...

3. The vice-president of Diebold and the president of ES&S are brothers.
www.americanfreepress.net...
www.onlinejournal.com...

4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who actually wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."
www.cbsnews.com...
www.wishtv.com...

5. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel used to be the chairman of ES&S.
www.motherjones.com...
www.onlinejournal.com...

6. Chuck Hagel became Senator in a surprise upset win with votes counted on ES&S machines.
www.motherjones.com...
www.onlinejournal.com...

7. Chuck Hagel, long-connected with the Bush family, was recently caught lying about his ownership interest in ES&S by the Senate Ethics Committee.
www.blackboxvoting.com...
www.hillnews.com...
www.onlisareinsradar.com...

8. Chuck Hagel was on a short list of George W. Bush's vice-presidential candidates.
www.businessweek.com...
theindependent.com...

9. The co-chair George Bush's Ohio election campaign, Kenneth Blackwell, is Ohios secretary of state and he left no stone unturned to suppress the vote.
www.truthout.org...
www.freepress.org...
67.15.90.110.../10/29/1414219

10. Diebold's new touch screen voting machines leave no paper trail. In other words, there is no way to later verify the accuracy of the data coming out of the machines.
www.commondreams.org...
www.itworld.com...

11. Diebold also makes ATMs, checkout scanners and ticket machines, all of which generate a paper trail.
www.commondreams.org...
www.diebold.com...

12. Exit polls are usually excellent predictors of election results. Reputable analysts find no explanation of the discrepancy between exit polls and results of the 2004 presidential election.
ucdata.berkeley.edu...
www.buzzflash.com...
www.nytimes.com...

13. A Diebold subsidiary employed 5 convicted felons as senior managers and developers. They helped write the central compiler computer code that counted 50% of the votes in 30 states.
www.wired.com...
portland.indymedia.org...

14. Jeff Dean, a senior programmer on Diebold's central compiler code, was convicted of 23 counts of felony theft in the first degree and served jail time for planting back doors in his client's accounting software and using a "high degree of sophistication" to evade detection over a period of 2 years.
www.chuckherrin.com...

15. None of the international election observers were allowed in polling places in Ohio.
www.globalexchange.org...
www.enquirer.com...

16. California has banned the use of Diebold machines because the security is so bad. Despite Diebold's claims that the audit logs couldn't be hacked, a chimpanzee was able to do it! (See the movie with the chimp here.(blackboxvoting.org...>.)
wired.com...
www.msnbc.msn.com...

17. An amazing 100% of the voting machine errors reported in Florida were in favor of George Bush or Republican candidates.
www.wired.com...
www.yuricareport.com...
www.rise4news.net...
www.ilcaonline.org...
www.scoop.co.nz...

18. Serious, unexplainable voting anomalies in Florida, all favoring Bush, have been mathematically demonstrated and experts are recommending investigation.
www.yuricareport.com...
www.computerworld.com...
www.americanfreepress.net...
www.commondreams.org...
www.consortiumnews.com... uscountvotes.org...

The above is based on a list compiled at nightweed.com...
______________________________________________

Were American's votes deliberately miscounted?

If this was done, it means, quite literally, that we are no longer living in a democracy.

When I read the list a few days ago, some of the allegations just seemed too preposterous to believe. Like:

1. "Jeff Dean, senior programmer on Diebold's central compiler code...served jail time for planting back doors in his client's accounting software and using a 'high degree of sophistication' to evade detection over a period of 2 years."

I tracked down the author of the list, who graciously responded with a list of references for each allegation. I checked out this Jeff Dean thing in particular. It didn't take long to get to this:

According to the findings of fact in case no. 89-1-04034-1 (Washington State):

"...Defendant's thefts occurred over a 2 1/2 year period of time, there were multiple incidents, more than the standard range can account for, the actual monetary loss was substantially greater than typical for the offense, the crimes and their cover-up involved a high degree of sophistication and planning in the use and alteration of records in the computerized accounting system that defendant maintained for the victim, and the defendant used his position of trust and fiduciary responsibility as a computer systems and accounting consultant for the victim to facilitate the commission of the offenses."

2. Another one of the references led to a detailed account of the double database technique pioneered by Mr. Dean to enable electronically tabulated votes give a false total while still presenting accurate details in case of spot audits.

In combination with the constellation of undisputed circumstantial evidence and open conflicts of interest, these last details are just too damning to ignore.

A cloud over the validity of the American electoral process is not acceptable.

Please join me in calling for:

1) a full investigation of election irregularities

2) measures to ensure that ballots cannot easily be miscounted, and can be recounted.

Please

1) forward this list to everyone you know,

2) use it as grist for letters to the editor (in your own words) and requests to newspapers, radio and TV for election fraud investigation... www.democraticunderground.com...,

3) write your congressional representatives calling for an investigation www.house.gov...



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:52 PM
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The whole thing everyone seems to miss is that the US voting System is horrible. Whether it be long lines, information not present even though you voted there the three previous elections (like me), something needs to be done. While it may be to late for anyone to argue this election, the coming elections can benefit. There needs to be some serious changes to the voting process, which no one seems to be wanting to tackle in office. We were told that there would never be another 2000 election, but yet it has happened in 2004. I'm not picking or advocating sides, something needs to be done for the people who choose their elected officials.



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by ajm4481
Its sickening to see our leaders playing like kids over who lost or won...Kerry ... has not been at the front of all the nonsense.


As you say, Kerry did not participate in the challenge.


Originally posted by ajm4481 If the party ever stops whining ....


The challenges were made by concerned citizens - many who were prevented from voting. As I understand it, even "old-school" Republicans are deeply concerned about the current state of affairs.

One of the most important criticisms centers on the voting machines and lack of paper trail or any kind of record.


.



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 03:05 PM
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as posted by soficrow
One of the most important criticisms centers on the voting machines and lack of paper trail or any kind of record.


And as I have admittedly said before, this needs to be addressed.
But some have been advocating the abolishment of the Electorial College. How does this address what you have mentioned above? How does a 'civil war' address what you are saying above?

I will also agree with much of what Trickmastertrick has mentioned.




seekerof



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 03:23 PM
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Civil war will never happen, well, I can't say never, but not over this. The sides would not be clearly defined, how would we determine who is our enemy? Would we kill anybody wearing red or blue? I think that market has already been cornered. I have gotten over it, not because I think this election was legitimate, because it clearly was not, but it seems to me Kerry was just as much behind it as the neo-cons. Why did he concede before the votes were counted? Why hasn't he addressed in any way the concerns of his many supporters? I think he threw the fight long before it started. Democracy is a joke, here and abroad, I'm not sure we've EVER had a legitimate election, it's just that the internet allows people to spread the word alot more efficiently than relying on the government controlled media. I think every election from 2000 on is going to be deemed illigitimate by supporters of whoever loses, and I'm sure had Kerry won, the Bush supporters would have been the pinnacle of grace.



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 03:28 PM
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Originally posted by Seekerof
How does this address what you have mentioned above? How does a 'civil war' address what you are saying above?


I simply answered ajm's question. My points are: the election process is not working; the problems need to be addressed; the focus on partisanship is a red herring that obscures the real issues.

The fact is, people are talking about civil war as a solution to the nation's woes. As I've said it before, there are other options. ...I didn't want to write (another) major paper, and opted instead to provide links to some of the really great stuff that's being circulated - as an option to civil war, rigged elections, economic servitude, eugenics, population control, the whole package...



.

[edit on 7-1-2005 by soficrow]



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by dubiousone
Get over it? Get over the destruction of our democratic process? Sure. Why not? Sounds like the congenial thing to do.





Great post dubiousone. Thanks.

Please, please follow up on some the links I posted. ...There is some great analysis out there, and much very possible legal recourse.


.

[edit on 7-1-2005 by soficrow]



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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There is much work to be done to fix the election process in America; that is where our efforts should be directed, not at this petty bickering. BOTH SIDES are guilty of either doing dirty deeds or not correcting the ills that are present in the system.

There are a couple of points that I want to address, however.

First, Kerry did not personally participate participate in the challenge. He sent an email to his supporters that stated:

Tomorrow, members of Congress will meet to certify the results of the 2004 presidential election. I will not be taking part in a formal protest of the Ohio Electors.

Despite widespread reports of irregularities, questionable practices by some election officials and instances of lawful voters being denied the right to vote, our legal teams on the ground have found no evidence that would change the outcome of the election.


Why wasn't Kerry here to make sure his voice was heard? Because he was in Iraq, giving a pep talk to the troops and criticizing the Bush administrations' handling of the Iraqi situation:

He said he was more interested in asking questions of soldiers, American officials and Iraqis themselves than in rehashing the political battles of past campaign.

But in several instances, he attacked what he called the ''horrendous judgments" and ''unbelievable blunders" of the Bush administration. The mistakes, he said, included the decisions to disband the Iraqi Army and purge the government of former members of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party. Both moves are widely believed to have fueled the Sunni Arab insurgency.

www.boston.com...

And even though Kerry did not personally challenge the vote, he did encourage his supporters to contact Frist and Hastert to complain.

The second and final point I would like to address is item 4 posted by dubiousone:

4. The chairman and CEO of Diebold is a major Bush campaign organizer and donor who actually wrote in 2003 that he was "committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year."


I have seen this same point brought up by many people here on ATS, and the implication is that Odell somehow got involved in nefarious deeds that included rigging election machines to help Bush win.

Let's take his quote first of all. He is a staunch Bush supporter and does not hide that fact. No law broken broken here.

Michael Moore, George Soros, Susan Sarandon, Howard Stern, and many others, including high level Democratic politicians, also committed themselves to deliver the vote for Kerry. Big deal.

To imply that Odell=Diebold=rigged-election is absurd, and I ask those implying this to prove it instead of just finding someone guilty because of their position.




posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 04:07 PM
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I sure as hell won't "get over it".



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 04:22 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
To imply that Odell=Diebold=rigged-election is absurd, and I ask those implying this to prove it instead of just finding someone guilty because of their position.


You're right, until there is more concrete proof, affiliation alone does not convict anybody. However, I'm sure as a Bush supporter, you would have had a bit of an unsettling feeling in your stomach if Michael Moore was CEO of Diebold and Kerry had won, would you not?



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 04:30 PM
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Yeah, you're probably right. But just to set the record straight, I'm an Indy, not a Republican. It only seems that I'm pro-Bush (and I am in many instances) because I challenge the anti-Bu#es here so often.

That said, I would NEVER have voted for Kerry, if I had been a Democrat. He was my US Senator for about ten years, and I know how he works too well. Now Joe Lieberman, I probably would have voted for him.



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 04:41 PM
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Translated: We cheated again... we think we got away with it again. Now leave us alone.



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 04:44 PM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
Yeah, you're probably right. But just to set the record straight, I'm an Indy, not a Republican. It only seems that I'm pro-Bush (and I am in many instances) because I challenge the anti-Bu#es here so often.

That said, I would NEVER have voted for Kerry, if I had been a Democrat. He was my US Senator for about ten years, and I know how he works too well. Now Joe Lieberman, I probably would have voted for him.


I'm independent too, and I wasn't too keen on Kerry, I just can't stand Bush, and I saw him as the only possible way out of Bush country. But as I stated before, I now think Kerry wasn't running to win to begin with, so IMO all this worrying about voting fraud is pointless, I think we have never really had a say, but maybe that's just me. Too bad McCain didn't win the party nomination instead of Bush, I voted for him for senate this election.

[edit on 7-1-2005 by 27jd]



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 05:30 PM
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Many excellent points being made....
great links dubiousone... well organized....


ONE MAJOR POINT THAT SHOULD RING WITH ANYONE....
in the 2000 election... many of these voting machines came up with NEGATIVE vote counts for GORE.... now can someone explain how someone can vote a negative vote.... IT CAN"T LEGALLY HAPPEN.!!!

the neocons have stolen our government from us, and the president probably doesn't even know he won by cheating.... (if he did, he wouldn't be all macarthy with his moral mission)

If he is so sure he won, then whats the problem with an investigation? huh chicken?... bwock bwockk.... afraid of a little proof?

www.blackboxvoting.org for proof of the negative vote counts from 2000 for GORE



posted on Jan, 7 2005 @ 05:33 PM
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I do have a great idea for insureing future election results...

have everyone stay where they voted for the entire day until all votes are counted... (fairgrounds, concert halls ect...)

and if the votes are counted, and people don't like it, then everyone picks up a bat and the last one left standing represents the winner...



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