Today's Conservatives Are Fascists

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
A communist or even an anarcho-capitalist economic system could've implemented the same terrible things as the fascists did.

Perhaps. But it was, in fact, Hitler and his fascist thugs who perpetrated the crimes. This country is headed straight down the same path, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

Originally posted by EastCoastKid

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
A communist or even an anarcho-capitalist economic system could've implemented the same terrible things as the fascists did.

Perhaps. But it was, in fact, Hitler and his fascist thugs who perpetrated the crimes. This country is headed straight down the same path, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.

LOL That is very funny...really. WE ARE NOT HEADING DOWN THE SAME PATH AS NAZI GERMANY! I know. My Oma & Opa lived through NAZI Germany. I have asked him twice of his opinion of America. His reply, roughly paraphrased: "Not prefect by any stretch, but better than most". This is from a guy that had to hide from the SS. I think he would be in a better position than any of us to quantify if America was going Fascist.
Damnit people get off of the hysteria juice will ya.

Is our govt. instituting plans that are "NAZI"? NO! Could they be used to hurt America...YES!
Ask yourself this: "What was America during World War II?"
America was under even more stringent control during that war. Did we back away from it? Some.

I will say this at heart I am a Libertarian. I would like nothing more than for the USA to put a huge wall around our country, allow open quota legal immigration, get rid of income taxes, pull every troop we have out of every stinking country, make this country the biggest fort the world has ever seen, and while I smoke a legal joint let the rest of the world go to S***. But that is not going to happen any more than the US will become a Socialist or Fascist country overnight because of Bush.
Will this Republic fall? YES
Will it fall soon because of Bush and CO.? NO
Is this the beginning? NO
It began a long time before Bush.

I said:

"A communist or even an anarcho-capitalist economic system could've implemented the same terrible things as the fascists did."

To which EastCoastKid Replied:

"Perhaps. But it was, in fact, Hitler and his fascist thugs who perpetrated the crimes. This country is headed straight down the same path, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not."

EastCoastKid, you seem to be hung up on the term "fascism" (which is an economic system), with the dictatorship of Hitler (which is a political system) and his evils (which is a moral system -- or immoral, in this case). The political and moral aspects were the ones which did the truly terrible things, which included depriving the Germans of their freedom and selected minorities, especially the Jews, of their very lives.

You say "This country is headed straight down the same path, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not.", and I agree that we are tending towards more and more of a nationalist and imperialist foreign policy (which has its advantages and disadvantages), as well as a statist, anti-freedom, overly authoritan domestic policy (which is a horrid thing indeed), but I don't see us going after the Jews or the Gypsies (or, to put it within our present context, the Blacks or the Hispanics).

What I need to make clear, is that, even though we use it as a curse-word, fascism, as an economic system is not inherently evil except where it gives the State control over the means of production by fostering an alliance with business cartels.

But communism, especially a la Lenin and Stalin, takes complete control of the means of production, which means it deprives everyone of their wealth.

You need to understand that any economic system which controls the wealth, whether it is socialism or fascism, will not work unless you provide a strong State with the strength and resources to force the citizens to give up their wealth. And this whole concept of forcing the citizens requires a police force, and, ultimately, secret police, neighborhood informers, etc.

In other words, a police state.

Both socialism and fascism, by their very nature, rely on the government using force to take away the citizens' property and, ultimately, their rights. So from a freedom point of view, there's not much difference between the fascism of Adolf Hitler and the socialism of Josef Stalin.

Both of these morally bankrupt pseudo-philosophies, like their bastard stepchildren "neo-conservatism" and "Kennedy Liberalism", are enemies of freedom and free people.



[edit on 26-1-2005 by Off_The_Street]

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
fascism, as an economic system is not inherently evil except where it gives the State control over the means of production by fostering an alliance with business cartels.

By your very own statement, you have shown that this idea is true. The state has fostered these alliances with the business cartels. Look at the Carlysle group, or Halibourton. Its obviouse for anyone willing to open thier eyes that this country is not a democracy, nor has it been for a while. We are heading down a road from which we are not allowed to turn around.

Those who deny the reality that this administration is fascist, lives in the same bizarre alternative universe as they do. Congratulations. By the time you finally do figure it out, it will be too late to do anything about it.

EastCoastKid, why don't you define "fascist"? Maybe your definition is different than mine.

Are you talking "fascist" as being an economic system?

Are you talking "fascist" as being a synonym for dictatorship?

Are you talking "fascist" as being a synonym for murdering selected minorities?

You know, we might well be in agreement here.

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by Off_The_Street
fascism, as an economic system is not inherently evil except where it gives the State control over the means of production by fostering an alliance with business cartels.

By your very own statement, you have shown that this idea is true. The state has fostered these alliances with the business cartels. Look at the Carlysle group, or Halibourton. Its obviouse for anyone willing to open thier eyes that this country is not a democracy, nor has it been for a while. We are heading down a road from which we are not allowed to turn around.

KF: How many time must we go over this? America is not, nor never has been a democracy. It is a Constitutional Representative Republic. It is like talking to a damn wall.

Originally posted by Imperium Americana


KF: How many time must we go over this? America is not, nor never has been a democracy. It is a Constitutional Representative Republic.

Constitutional Representative Republic=Democracy................

It is like talking to a damn wall.

Then quit talking.

Originally posted by Kidfinger

Originally posted by Imperium Americana


KF: How many time must we go over this? America is not, nor never has been a democracy. It is a Constitutional Representative Republic.

Constitutional Representative Republic=Democracy................

Democracy = Direct Rule of the People
en.wikipedia.org...

Republic = Mixed Rule
en.wikipedia.org...

Technically America is a Constitutional Representative Federal Republic, but seeing your difficulty with even simple terms, such as "democracy and "republic", I would not want to confuse you more than you already are.

Then quit talking.

Let see the two main choices here are:
1. I quit talking...I am sure you would love that!
2. Or you could stop being a wall. (i.e. Think)

Yeah...guess which one of those is going to happen first.
Feel free to exercise your freedom of speech; wherever and whenever you want. I would never request someone prohibit free exercise of their own God-Given rights, but I would request them to be factual. As I am sure you demand of me.

Originally posted by Imperium Americana

Democracy = Direct Rule of the People
en.wikipedia.org...

Republic = Mixed Rule
en.wikipedia.org...

Technically America is a Constitutional Representative Federal Republic, but seeing your difficulty with even simple terms, such as "democracy and "republic", I would not want to confuse you more than you already are.

You can stop with the condisending speach there buddy. It will get you no respect from me.

Now, with that being said, here is a quote from your own link about the Republic.

A republic, in the classical form, is a type of government that is made up of a mixture of elements from three other types of government: monarchy, aristocracy, and DEMOCRACY

Most every one in this country knows that the Democracy we refer to is not a true Democracy.

Yeah...guess which one of those is going to happen first.

Well, after your holier than thou reply, I was kind of hoping you would just quit talking. Not that I am trying to stifle your opinion, thats just MY opinion.

Feel free to exercise your freedom of speech; wherever and whenever you want. I would never request someone prohibit free exercise of their own God-Given rights, but I would request them to be factual. As I am sure you demand of me.

Was using your own links factual enough? Or would you prefer that I hand you a print out in person?



[edit on 1/31/05 by Kidfinger]

Here's a good article showing the comparison between Hitler's notion of freedom and G.W. Bush's.

Uncommon Sense
Freedom in Wonderland

By Michael Hasty
Online Journal Columnist

Download a .pdf file for printing.
Adobe Acrobat Reader required.
Click here to download a free copy.

"Freedom is owning things."—George W. Bush

January 28, 2005—Protected from the American public by legions of imperial storm troopers in a city that appeared to be the very model of a high-tech police state, George W. Bush used the word "freedom" 27 times in his second inaugural address. The word "liberty" appeared 15 times. Under the circumstances, it's worth recalling that "freedom" was also one of Adolph Hitler's favorite themes.

What is even more disturbing is that Hitler and Bush are in general agreement about the definition of "freedom," in their historic use of the term. For both men, "freedom" refers to a policy of militant nationalist unilateralism, free from the restrictions of international law and treaties. In Hitler's case, besides the open rejection of the constraints on German militarism in the Treaty of Versailles, which ended the first World War, "freedom" also applied to the policy of "Lebensraum" (translated as "living space"), by which he meant the preemptive right of the German people to expand into neighboring countries.

Bush's definition is uncannily similar. As Michael Ratner of the Center for Constitutional Rights has described it, "Spreading freedom is [Bush's] code word to hide the continued drive for American hegemony, riches and resources." The so-called "Bush doctrine" is an official policy of taking preemptive military action to advance American "national security" interests (which have historically included America's interest in Middle Eastern oil), and to protect American "freedom."

Thus, Hitler's invasion of Czechoslovakia and Bush's invasion of Iraq—both employing the rationale of "freedom"—can be seen to have had identical goals: overtly, the "protection" of their respective citizenries; and covertly, the expansion of national wealth and power, and the geopolitical expression of national "will."
www.onlinejournal.com...