An honest question for discussion: Where, when and why did the US begin to fall?

a reply to: Eilasvaleleyn

The ME is the way it is because they rule by tribes. The only time they did not is when empires ruled over them. They have had thousands of years to learn that unity was their salvation and chose religions. I blame the corporations for their part in making shieks rich but not the US people. I am all for leaving there and let the best man win. We need to recoup.

I see four key points in the decline of American liberty. Lincoln attacking the South, the formation of the Federal Reserve, the Kennedy assassination, and 911.

These were key moments in the decline of the American character, even if some good came from some of these events.

As far as the power of the American state, it rose until Kennedy, and has mostly declined sense.

Just my opinion.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the Whiskey Rebellion. When Washington rode at the head of an army, supposed to have been greater than any that he had lead during the revolution, to suppress the insurgency (to beat down his own countrymen because of a tax on liquor).

Well what a most refreshing thread. No ( Very minor ) prejudice surfacing, not to much OB bashing and very positive and truthful input.. I from Europe see America as strong, rich and stumbling along. It has been tainted by war especially with its mistakes in Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq to state the obvious. I imagine if all those war funds had been put to a positive use it would bee seen as the beacon it once was.. It would be nice for the next President, He or She to admit some big mistakes have been made..

a reply to: sdcigarpig

And off we go again!

First...can I just give a massive hurrah for the folks in this thread. I'm in love with the amount of info I am receiving and how it is being offered. Nobody making fun of me for falling short on less obvious historical knowledge. Nobody attacking me or others...wow

Anyway....

Overnight (well...not during sleep) I thought a bit about those words "confidence" in the presidency. I've never quite thought about what it means to lose confidence in the highest office. I feel like losing confidence in say, a physician, is terrible and dangerous...yet unless you are in a massive, wide open area with a town of 12 people and no other choice, you can usually find another doctor and seek better care. The POTUS on the other hand is the one and only, at least for that term. To the actual thoughts of confidence, it never struck me until the members on this thread reminded me (directly or otherwise) what a lack of confidence does to the people that the POTUS resides "over." We place so much emphasis on the office, as we rightfully should, and while I argue that every man and woman in this world are very imperfect, the damage done by a local carpenter usually remains local while the damage done by a POTUS is typically national and sometimes (many times) global.

Thank you for opening these eyes a wee bit more.

I have to thoroughly agree on McCarthy. Obviously he was not the first person to begin such witch hunts but he sure made them very national and yet very personal at the same time. I was born in 1979...well after Eisenhower/McCarthy era but even the tiniest bit of reading shows me how nasty those trials were and how much horror can be inflicted by falsely accusing someone. It ruins lives and that damage is enduring.

I also agree on TV and this is where I'd love to request a follow up question. When you talk of TV being shallow and controlling (and I agree) how much weight do you put on the blame of the producers versus the consumers for even watching such trash? Is it 100% the production at fault or is a great deal of the fault given to the consumer who elects to watch that same trash? Was the brainwashing so powerful as to be unavoidable? Thank you!!

vjr1113

Thanks for letting me wake up to a positive response as well! Do you feel that social systems and change are a true marker of progress? How much emphasis do you place on economic markers?

Gothmog

Thanks for backing up NthOther's post. Gives me more of a nudge to take a look at thte events. Do you by any chance have a solid book recommendation for an alternate view of the Secession? I see on Amazon a few that look interesting.

charlyv

Thanks for the comments! I've always had this question in mind (not specifically of the GWB to Obama transition...of any transition). I know there is no specific number, but I wonder at what point does an incoming president take the entire brunt of the blame (or in positive cases the award) for their term? I ask because it seems that some policies set by a predecessor seem like they cause consequences that are short lived while others last a lifetime, such as the repeat mention of the Fed by Wilson.

Dimithae

In this case, I have a solid opinion of my own and I agree that we seem to be totally ok, on the surface at least, to let fly with the squashing of rights in times of fear. I know it is a movie, but it is reminiscent of V for Vendetta when we turn our lives over to the "Chancellor" of sorts. It brings me right back to Wilson's four-minute-men and the attempted grab for freedom of speech in the name of American pride. Do you feel that the people should be allowed 100% free speech so long as it does not incite violence?

MOMof3

I can understand the coveting of oil. May I ask what of religion brought us down; the following and belief, or the resulting backlash against religion? Thanks!

Nickn3

I am old enough to remember Reagan and to have voted the second term of Clinton which was my first legal vote. Again this speaks to the above statement about confidence in the office itself. If the Lewinsky events never took place (as in did not happen...not just weren't uncovered) what would you say about Clinton's overall presidency and effectiveness? Thanks!

Leonidas

Great comment! What do you feel are the dirtiest of our plays in the past 70 or so years? I think quite a bit about interment camps in the US but also the many gruesome moments of Vietnam

St Udio

I definitely understand the assassinations, but may I inquire further about the expansion of the two states?

madmac5150

Yeah....I may be a little more knowledgeable regarding the Civil War to WWI and WWII as I've spent more time on that than the other wars, but I have to ask, do you feel slavery was truly on the outs? I wonder because prior to secession, new land grabs for the ability to keep slavery were occurring. Though I suppose, again, this could be an indicator that it was more about states' rights than the actual institution of slavery. Do you feel that if Lincoln or any other President had allowed those rights to stay intact that slavery states would have ended the practice? I wonder how long it would have taken. Thanks!

pirhanna

Interesting point of view. Certainly not arguing against, but what do you feel was the good that came from these events, specifically from the Fed and 9/11? Thanks!

daskakik

Great suggestion and thank you! This topic comes up on ATS quite a bit I have noticed. not the Whiskey Rebellion per se, but about people rising against the government and the government's potential smack down of the very people who make up the country itself.

a reply to: KyoZero


All of them. Why do Arabs care who Jews worship,why do Arabs care who other Arabs worship,etc. Why can't they govern beyond religious differences.

I think there is always some waxing and waning going on in various measures of government. Whether it is military, economy, natural resources, etc. One year might see a stronger military but higher debt. The next year might see stable debt but a decline in jobs. It depends on what you consider "falling" to be.

When I read the question the first thing that came to mind was the first time I felt truly embarrassed to be an American. It was watching bill clinton making us look like fools on the international stage. The whole world watched his philandering, then watched as he looked straight into the camera and said, "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."

That was the fist time I ever truly saw the US losing respect world wide. Not that no one ever made a mistake before that or that our reputation was perfect until then. But there was the sense that the whole country was a big joke and we were all fools for being part of it. I will never forget that feeling.

a reply to: KyoZero
Consider this: Before Nixon, most of the time, any scandal about the president came out after the man had left office and or died. Even JFK, with his affairs, while in office, those were never reported on, until after he was killed and even then, it was some years before it was reported and to what extent. After Nixon, it seems like any and all scandal’s that are around the President, comes out, and it dominates the public fascination and interest for a few days or weeks. The only ones who have any interest in prolonging that interest is the other political party, to drag it out. The confidence in the federal government is so poor, that the politicians are often out of touch with what the common person thinks these days. They only want to hear what their party says and not the dissenting point of view. Ask yourself this: Do you trust those who are elected?
At one time, the people both those who voted and did not vote for the individual would answer yes, they did. Now it is no and maybe. The confidence is not there, the country is polarized.

And ultimately it is the messages that is being sent out. Many of the advertisements, which we hear every day, shows more towards the individual and not the whole. Take a look at some of the biggest names of products, mega corporations. It isn’t share this or that, it is more you and your. You deserve a break, have it your way. That plays on the mind far more than anything else, where we start to believe the entitlement that they are pushing on us. And people keep pushing the same old message where many social movements fail. It is always I or me, never we or us.

TV, advertisements and the entertainment industry is all wrapped up into one tidy package where separating all of it out, is pretty much hard to do. Scandal, and bad behavior is glorified, packed up neatly and presented for the viewing audience for their pleasure. We may say we abhor violence, but the question is have you seen the ratings for some of the more violent TV series? At one time most movies and TV shows had a message that was present, subtle, but present. It was a commentary on the world around us, the good, bad and the ugly, but now, most tend not to have such. Even the entertainment, see this or that, but when you step back, and look, not just at the movie, but the content and what is being shown, it takes on a more darker tone and note. Some of the most popular TV series of 2015, shows that, with the highest ratings there present, we watched with fascination and either enjoyed or had abject horror in our eyes. And with people watching such every day and week, it is going to have an effect on the mind.

a reply to: Xtrozero

You got a point there. I never gave much thought to that. The average guy on the street has no power and influence on government policy.

It's probably just because we're easy targets. We don't have body guards like government officials and the corporate elite.

November 10, 1975

a reply to: KyoZero

In my opinion, it started when Bill Clinton repealed the Glass-Steagall Act, signed NAFTA into law and awarded China with America's "Permanent Most Favored Trading Status."

That was the beginning and it's been a downhill ride every since.

And to think that Hillary will be looking to him for advice if she's elected. According to her own words, "Especially when it comes to economic concerns."

Which is why I'll be voting for Bernie this time around.

Woodrow Wilson himself wrote:

A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is privately concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men ...

[W]e have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated, governments in the civilized world—no longer a government by free opinion, no longer a government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a government by the opinion and the duress of small groups of dominant men.

All of the above is from Woodrow Wilson's The New Freedom: A Call for the Emancipation of the Generous Energies of a People (New York and Garden City: Doubleday, Page & Company, 1913).

In this same work, Wilson also wrote the below:
"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something.

They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."

I always remember reading he also said "I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country." Apparently that is in dispute, but here's the same passage including it:

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men."

said:
-Woodrow Wilson, after signing the Federal Reserve into existence

sigh

the wikiquote author says (in the face of those calling it bunk):

It doesn't really matter who said it, the point is that it is true, the federal government and federal reserve create a monarchy as opposed to a democracy.

en.wikiquote.org...:Woodrow_Wilson#.22I_am_a_most_unhappy_man....22

imho...the US downfall began in the mid 1960s. JFK's death lead to the LBJ presidency. He was a political hack of the worst kind. He did get the civil rights act passed (a good thing, and thanks to the Republicans), but then started on his 'Great Society' anti-poverty programs that got the federal government involved in local school nutrition, housing, affirmative action, quotas, and all sorts of government welfare programs.
(edit; much of this was well-intentioned, and there's no doubt we improved life for a lot of people, but at the cost of huge government intrusion and growth.)
the US biggest problem today (again imho) is the millions of tax dollars spent on thousands and thousands of non-productive non-working deadbeats, mostly in our cities, who consume every imaginable resource and produce nothing but crime and Democrat votes. Many cities (Detroit) did their own version, basically using tax $ to buy votes. Now they are going bankrupt and want the rest of us to pay for.
The national debt, and high tax burden, is the result of decades of US Democrat vote-buying.

In addition, the US is suffering from a decline in moral values, also dating from the mid 1960s. I remember being in school and reading character-building stories that emphasized hard work, honesty, and respect for elders. These values are rapidly decreasing. Almost all the employers and managers I talk to say their biggest problem is lack of work ethic among the employees, especially the younger ones. Millennials are very good at being tolerant of other races and those with varied sexual preference, but very reluctant to actually work.

originally posted by: Aliensun
a reply to: KyoZero

Why must the reason be via politics?


I blame Dr. Spock, but none of you know who he was or else think of him as being from Star Trek.

It's funny how this post is largely ignored, yet contains the meat and potatoes of the whole thing.
How children are raised. How they view the world based on how their parents chose to teach them.
those children grew up and now run the world. And the ones who run things aren't the ones who grew up without.

a reply to: KyoZero

since the american people actually thought George Bush can run a country. he cant even run car.

an since you let a Muslim named guy born in Kenya take over his work.

mmm... Muslim named president and now having a problem with terrorist Muslims. Sounds like it was the plan all along

American people- wake up please, too late anyway you sold it off now

stop going for sh1tty catch phrases "yes we can" and use your brain in future.

a reply to: network dude

That's why I responded to that one. I love that he pointed it out. I missed the concept on non-political issues

His ideas lasted for ages.....

a reply to: KyoZero

Where we began to fall is an open ended question. Income inequality was at it's lowest, purchasing power was at it's highest, and our global power was at it's height in 1967. Everything since then has been a decline. I don't think that answer is what you're looking for though.

If you want someone or something to blame from recent times I would name Alan Greenspan whose policies (which he later admitted were completely wrong) caused the 2001 recession, the 2008 recession, and created the next one too when it happens in the next few years.

Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt. This started what would the Progressive movement in the US. Since these two, the legislation that they helped to create has been constricted and constricted over and over. The entire way the nation was founded was changed with these two men. A large controlling central government that does not look at the rights of the states or it's citizens.

Eisenhower was the last who had any control. He warned us and it cost the life of JFK. The next president to go against those who control the wars and money was Reagan. They did not waste 3 years and tried to kill him within months.

TV was then the next decline in the US and now it is the Internet. No one learns anymore then search. We are spoon fed bits and pieces of lies that we fabricate into truth.

Manufacturing has left however we have not progressed as a whole to create a new space for work. This again promotes that Progressive thought process. If you feed a stray dog lone enough, no matter how mean, it will finally come around and do what you want for that small price which is his own freedom.

We are now basically slaves to gas prices and credit scores. It sucks....

a reply to: KyoZeroI personally believe much of our problems today began with Woodrow Wilson as President. But if you want to talk about "current events" I believe President Johnson hurt this society more than most Presidents. He signed into law a lot of government give away programs.

The reality is that any real failing of America falls at the feet of giant mega corporations. There are too many, they are too big, and they don't care about this country or it's people.

Every time a corporation buys out and merges with another, it further kills the American citizen. the American worked used to be something business invested in. Now, the worker is simply a cog in the system, and viewed as the least important cog at that.

the solution? Offer a one time tax benefit option to all companies willing to be based solely in America, hiring American workers (legal, illegals, who cares) with the option of only having limited offices elsewhere in the world. Those who chose not to accept, simply refuse to sell their goods or services in America. Close down their offices, plants, and warehouses in America. Other businesses will gladly step in to take over, and we can get back to an American product, with American workers. The country can heal itself, but not without putting a stop to mega corporations who continually look for the cheapest option at every turn, through automation, and overseas headquarters.