Economists savage Trump's economic agenda

a reply to: Krazysh0t

How do the poor get poorer if in 2008 they were unemployed and today they are employed (even IF that employment is just minimum wage)?

Now, I do agree with you on the fact that the economy is improving, but this is kinda faulty logic. You can not assume all those who became employed over the past 8 years were from the unemployment pool of 2008. Also, new laws changed the definition of what it meant to be unemployed just a little over 6 years ago and a lot of people were no longer counted as unemployed though they did not gain employment. Remember statistics is a politicians best friend due to its ease of misrepresentation.

We can not look solely at the employment levels to determine if the American economy is improving, that is a super oversimplification. The GDP has gone up while inflation seems to be growing at a rate that causes minimum wage to be well below a meaningful income.

Here is Rober Reich, who IMHO is the greatest living American economist:



if you are willing to watch you will see that it's a super complicated mess, and we are going to have to work hard to get out of this dilemma, not depend on some rich 1% to actually hand us money for the rest of our lives.

Anyway, I think we both agree that Trump won't fix the issues, no politician will. The people need to work hard and save money, and that what will turn the American economy around. No easy answers here, just hard work and elbow grease.

a reply to: hubrisinxs

I agree that it is super complicated and I also agree that I oversimplified it a bit there. My point was more to show that things aren't as bad as conservatives posters like to lament they are.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: hubrisinxs

I agree that it is super complicated and I also agree that I oversimplified it a bit there. My point was more to show that things aren't as bad as conservatives posters like to lament they are.

But, when I show you that they are that bad, you insinuate that I am a liar and a fool.

I know, it's super complicated.

originally posted by: Agit8dChop
a reply to: Krazysh0t

Not sure if people realize this, but there is an incredible push by the establishment to discredit Trump at every turn regardless if he deserved it or not.

Trump could find a cure for cancer, solve the worlds economic problems and cure aids but the establishment (supported by the Murdoch Media) would slam him in the press and have all sorts of ''experts'' come out and say how bad and irresponsible he is.

Don't get me wrong, Trump has done and said stupid things, but he's also said and done a lot of important things.. but you'd think he was Hitlers son judging from the bs press and statements.

regardless if your pro trump or anti trump, all parties are incredibly corrupt and paid for and the whole charade is a total sham, so when one person says '' see the experts said this so its true '' you sound like a gullible fool.

No one has to push to discredit Trump. The media gives him a huge audience and he uses it =to say hateful things and to lay out unworkable plans. I am wondering what important things there are that Trump has said and done?

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: hubrisinxs

I agree that it is super complicated and I also agree that I oversimplified it a bit there. My point was more to show that things aren't as bad as conservatives posters like to lament they are.

But, when I show you that they are that bad, you insinuate that I am a liar and a fool.

I know, it's super complicated.

Actually, what you are talking about and what hubrisinxs is talking about isn't the same thing. You are trying to argue that the economy is worse today than in 2008. That is lie. Unless I completely misread hubrisinxs' post he isn't saying that though. He's basically saying that the economy isn't improving as great as the media says it is, but it is definitely better. The reason for this is that the economy is much more complicated than the media talks about.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: hubrisinxs

I agree that it is super complicated and I also agree that I oversimplified it a bit there. My point was more to show that things aren't as bad as conservatives posters like to lament they are.

But, when I show you that they are that bad, you insinuate that I am a liar and a fool.

I know, it's super complicated.

Actually, what you are talking about hubrisinxs is talking about isn't the same thing. You are trying to argue that the economy is worse today than in 2008. That is lie. Unless I completely misread hubrisinxs' post he isn't saying that though. He's basically saying that the economy isn't improving as great as the media says it is, but it is definitely better.

How does massive unemployment constitute a better economy?

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: hubrisinxs

I agree that it is super complicated and I also agree that I oversimplified it a bit there. My point was more to show that things aren't as bad as conservatives posters like to lament they are.

But, when I show you that they are that bad, you insinuate that I am a liar and a fool.

I know, it's super complicated.

Actually, what you are talking about hubrisinxs is talking about isn't the same thing. You are trying to argue that the economy is worse today than in 2008. That is lie. Unless I completely misread hubrisinxs' post he isn't saying that though. He's basically saying that the economy isn't improving as great as the media says it is, but it is definitely better.

How does massive unemployment constitute a better economy?

How does a markedly downward trend in the unemployment numbers (all of them, including U6) not say "improvement" to you?

There also isn't "massive unemployment" in the economy. Even the ratio between U6 and U3 has decreased (it's not as great as it could be, but it IS going down). Really the only point you've brought up that I'd agree with you on is the wage issue. Wage growth is near non-existent to extremely small. But there are more factors to determining a functioning economy than JUST wage growth, and even then, wages have also increased since 2008.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I understand, and I agree with your stance, but I thought it would help if I cleared up a bit of the confusion.

You and the nay-saying conservatives are in some ways both right. Many sectors are growing, and many new jobs are opening up in America, but does that mean most unemployed Americans are ready to take those new jobs?

A lot of the unemployed I know were once factory workers here in NC. Now most of them are coming back to school to get a degree in nursing or computers because they are being told this is where the job market is going. But how many of them will really have a new job when they graduate, most will take the jobs of those that are retiring.

Also, you see a lot of stuff out there about all the new jobs that are created, but it is the same job, 'telemarketing'. Yeah, it is at different companies, who are all selling different things, but it is the same job. How many new writers, computer techs and nurses do we need? and when are we going to do something about the lack of manufacturing jobs(both finished and raw materials)?

Anyway, keep educating yourself and others for some will listen. Most appreciated.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: hubrisinxs

I agree that it is super complicated and I also agree that I oversimplified it a bit there. My point was more to show that things aren't as bad as conservatives posters like to lament they are.

But, when I show you that they are that bad, you insinuate that I am a liar and a fool.

I know, it's super complicated.

Actually, what you are talking about hubrisinxs is talking about isn't the same thing. You are trying to argue that the economy is worse today than in 2008. That is lie. Unless I completely misread hubrisinxs' post he isn't saying that though. He's basically saying that the economy isn't improving as great as the media says it is, but it is definitely better.

How does massive unemployment constitute a better economy?

How does a markedly downward trend in the unemployment numbers (all of them, including U6) not say "improvement" to you?

There also isn't "massive unemployment" in the economy. Even the ratio between U6 and U3 has decreased (it's not as great as it could be, but it IS going down). Really the only point you've brought up that I'd agree with you on is the wage issue. Wage growth is near non-existent to extremely small. But there are more factors to determining a functioning economy than JUST wage growth, and even then, wages have also increased since 2008.

Donald Trump is right: America's real unemployment rate is 40%

Donald Trump’s presidential campaign is not predicated on the candidate’s mastery of or allegiance to facts.

His views on things like immigration or international trade are just not supported by any relevant statistics. So when The Donald called into CBS’ Face the Nation on Sunday and claimed that Americans are living in a “false economy,” where the unemployment rate is actually 40% rather than the 5.1% as reported by the Labor Department, you’d be forgiven for believing this was just another Trumpian whopper.

But actually, this view can be supported by actual statistics. If you use the broadest definition of unemployment, the ratio of people over the age of 16 with jobs to the overall 16-and-over population, the Labor Department says that 40.6% of the population is unemployed.

a reply to: hubrisinxs

This is why I support marijuana legalization. If the federal government would wake the hell up and realize that legalizing marijuana would create manufacturing jobs literally overnight. Pretty much the whole country is defacto smoking already anyways. And it's not just the smokers that would benefit, there is also hemp manufacturing as well as medical manufacturing as well. Why is there still such a push not to keep it illegal? It's beyond absurd.

a reply to: greencmp

You didn't read your entire article did you? Because right where you stopped quoting the text, the article went on to say this:

Unfortunately, the veracity of Trump’s analysis ends there. As you can see from the above chart, 40% of the 16-and-over population not having a job is nothing new in America. Trump’s campaign slogan, Make America Great Again, presumably refers to his hope of returning America to it’s post-war glory, when the U.S. economy accounted for a much larger share of global GDP than it does today. But that was a time when a lower percentage of Americans of working age had a job.

When you study the statistics carefully, you find that the employment-population ratio has much more to do with social factors than the strength of the economy. As it became socially acceptable (and for middle class families economically necesssary) for women to enter the workforce in large numbers, the ratio rose. As the country aged and a greater share of workers entered retirement years, the ratio fell.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I am amazed that someone else finally noticed that.

I think that narcissism and the emotional vampires (and other forms of life force and social blood sucking)....narcissists are and narcissistic behavior and beliefs supported by most religions that are tailor made for a narcissist, the justification for the evil that narcissists do is the way most successful people in the U.S. became successful.

Narcissism has become the American Way and is celebrated here.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

Wow total agreement there, and that is why I also support marijuana legalization. Well, that and the fact that a lot of the people in prison(whose well-being is paid for by my taxes) are there for non-violent drug charges.

I can't find the article now, but I was reading where some major businesses in California were looking into copyright for hemp-based products. They want to get challenged when they try and sell their goods across state boards, so they can bring a case before the SCOTUS on the grounds of that interstate commerce act makes the war on drugs unconstitutional.

Hope they get heard, the war on Drugs is the most pointless and cost ineffective action the US government has ever taken.

Talk about one good way to stimulate the economy, if only hardline conservatives get over their irrational fears of named drugs. I say named drugs, cause they are often the largest supporters of high sugar products and cigarettes(both drugs, but never or rarely named as such).

originally posted by: MyHappyDogShiner
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I am amazed that someone else finally noticed that.

For the longest time I was amazed that so many have failed to notice it... I thought it was obvious from watching how he behaved on the Apprentice LONG before he started running for President.

If these professional economists haven't made any millions of dollars by practicing their theories in the real working world...sadly to say then they are full of shift. No wonder they are professors in this case and teaching crap to aspiring business students.

Given the fact that any turn around strategy to be implemented by someone who knows finance very well...I would have to assume that there may be a short term loss in economic inflow to the country before a long term gain in the same.

But if economists only speculate on tariffs as a way to Make America Great Again, they are having tunnel vision. Wasteful spending within the country has also lead to a rise in debt. You have to look at America as if it were a business enterprise in itself. Then putting on the thinking cap of Ben Carson, you would need to diagnose what is going on with the patient (enterprise) and try to fix the problem (debt, jobs, health care, illegal immigration, etc...)

My thoughts are the Clintons are being further investigated by the FBI for the charity fraud and espionage into secret files of the government for own benefit, Sanders is flapping his arms around like a loose duck and doesn't really have a clear direction of where to take the suffering US economy (doesn't help his campaign was snooping into Hillary Clinton's voter list), the GOP field are totally incompetent with the rising problem created by Obama & Bush administrations....who else can the country turn to for reconstruction?

You tell me.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: greencmp

You didn't read your entire article did you? Because right where you stopped quoting the text, the article went on to say this:

Unfortunately, the veracity of Trump’s analysis ends there. As you can see from the above chart, 40% of the 16-and-over population not having a job is nothing new in America. Trump’s campaign slogan, Make America Great Again, presumably refers to his hope of returning America to it’s post-war glory, when the U.S. economy accounted for a much larger share of global GDP than it does today. But that was a time when a lower percentage of Americans of working age had a job.

When you study the statistics carefully, you find that the employment-population ratio has much more to do with social factors than the strength of the economy. As it became socially acceptable (and for middle class families economically necesssary) for women to enter the workforce in large numbers, the ratio rose. As the country aged and a greater share of workers entered retirement years, the ratio fell.

Millennial College Graduates: Young, Educated, Jobless

Generation Opportunity, a conservative nonprofit that advocates for millennials, releases a monthly “Millennial Jobs Report” that slices official labor data and tracks unemployment rates for younger workers. As of May, the data show 13.8 percent of 18- to 29-year-olds are out of work, an improvement over 14.2 percent in January and over the same time last year, when it was 15.4 percent. The trend is encouraging, but the number is still way above the national jobless rate of 5.4 percent.

“If you look at the numbers starting in 2009, we’ve been in the longest sustained period of unemployment since the Bureau of Labor Statistics began collecting their data following World War II,”

a reply to: hubrisinxs

Wow. I love that idea! Can't get anything done with legislation? Go the judicial route.

a reply to: greencmp

I'm really at a loss what you are trying to prove with that post. Even that article says that the economy has improved. You cannot find a single source or data saying that our economy is worse off today than in 2008. It's impossible, because the economy HAS improved since then; even if some measures haven't improved as much as we would like them to.

a reply to: Krazysh0t

I'll have to take it with a grain of salt. This is like a Thursday night WWE fill-in telling wrestling fans that Hulk Hogan is not a wrestling entertainment legend and doesn't know what he's talking about when it comes to wrestling entertainment. Not to mention, somewhere around 65% of America's less educated people vote democratic. Plus Trump is an economic mastermind, which is far better than an expert, so that'll explain your last sentence.

originally posted by: Skywatcher2011
If these professional economists haven't made any millions of dollars by practicing their theories in the real working world...sadly to say then they are full of shift. No wonder they are professors in this case and teaching crap to aspiring business students.

Given the fact that any turn around strategy to be implemented by someone who knows finance very well...I would have to assume that there may be a short term loss in economic inflow to the country before a long term gain in the same.

But if economists only speculate on tariffs as a way to Make America Great Again, they are having tunnel vision. Wasteful spending within the country has also lead to a rise in debt. You have to look at America as if it were a business enterprise in itself. Then putting on the thinking cap of Ben Carson, you would need to diagnose what is going on with the patient (enterprise) and try to fix the problem (debt, jobs, health care, illegal immigration, etc...)

My thoughts are the Clintons are being further investigated by the FBI for the charity fraud and espionage into secret files of the government for own benefit, Sanders is flapping his arms around like a loose duck and doesn't really have a clear direction of where to take the suffering US economy (doesn't help his campaign was snooping into Hillary Clinton's voter list), the GOP field are totally incompetent with the rising problem created by Obama & Bush administrations....who else can the country turn to for reconstruction?

You tell me.

This is a common misunderstanding, economists are not fiscal professionals and have no business acumen.

They are only theorists as most economist's wives can attest.