"Vanilla ISIS"

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Well, they're certainly not organizing attacks.

Acts of violent terrorism are done by desperate people who believe violence is the only way to spread their message. People who have armies, UN status (governments), and lots of money don't resort to crudely made bombs and suicide shooting sprees.

So, that tells me that these guys aren't that desperate. They'd rather wait for someone to show up and escalate things into violence vs. instigating it themselves.

Best apology for ISIS I've read in a while.

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese

originally posted by: MystikMushroom
Well, they're certainly not organizing attacks.

Acts of violent terrorism are done by desperate people who believe violence is the only way to spread their message. People who have armies, UN status (governments), and lots of money don't resort to crudely made bombs and suicide shooting sprees.

So, that tells me that these guys aren't that desperate. They'd rather wait for someone to show up and escalate things into violence vs. instigating it themselves.

Best apology for ISIS I've read in a while.

How exactly are MystikMushroom's words an "apology" for ISIS? MystikMushroom is merely (yeah yeah, alliteration) pointing out a fundamental reality: that terrorism in the sense most know it is a tactic embraced by the desperate who lack better options. ISIS, for example, would much rather use their overwhelming military superiority to get their way. But they don't have said military superiority, so they implore their supporters to undertake rather lame lone-wolf attacks on their behalf. To acknowledge this reality is not to justify their objectives or their means. It is only acknowledging reality.

a reply to: diggindirt

And there's different ways to go about it.

A desperate person would "wage war" upon the "system" that caused the extra fines. Sabotage, shootings, bombings, acts of violence intended to rack up a body count, instill fear, and force the powerful into a weakened position.

A person who isn't as desperate would just picket with a sign, create a petition, write letters to the newspaper...

When you escalate a cause to include waging guerrilla war, you've effectiley ruled out any and all other options. You can't go back once you start blowing things up and shooting people. Acts of terrorism/violence are done by desperate people who don't think passive forms of resistance will work.

Do you think the rebels in Star Wars would have been successful chaining themselves to the Death Star, or camping outside Storm Trooper barracks? Darth Vader would just order them all shot and killed. The rebels in Star Wars knew that they had to escalate their cause to actual preemptive violence to advance their cause. They were desperate because they realized any form of peaceful, civil disobedience or traditional protesting wouldn't work.

Our founding fathers also knew they couldn't just protest to England. There wasn't any way England would let the colonies go without a fight. Our founders knew they couldn't rely on political or peaceful social protests to effect the kind of change they wanted/needed. Our founders decided war was the only option available to them had held any chance of success.

These guys in Oregon aren't "going to war". These guys aren't blowing up things or assassinating anyone (THANK GOD). Perhaps it will eventually escalate, which is why this entire thing is so worrisome. The more of these little temper-tantrum-protests that go ignored by the Feds, the more angry and desperate these people are going to get. The more desperate, the more likely these folks will turn to preemptive violence and "total war" against the government.

I do not wish to discount these guys -- as they do represent a very troubling symptom in America. If the government doesn't take these guys and their grievances seriously, then the government alone will be responsible for the escalation in violence they're going to eventually see from them. Its terrifying to think about another OKC bombing in the future, but we may face something like that if we don't take these guys somewhat seriously. All it takes is one nutjob.

Thankfully, right now these guys aren't willing to cross a line -- they aren't willing to "go to war" and preemptively strike. Right now, these guys are wanting to be shot at, so they can shoot back. As it stands now, they aren't willing to be the aggressor. I hope we can figure out a way to keep these guys from crossing that line.

a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese

No, you can organize, create and brainwash people into believing that whatever cause you have them fighting and dying for is worth it. With the right leadership you can convince people that blowing themselves up is the "only option" to get effect.

ISIS has a good propaganda machine that plays to its supporters. We, on the outside, can see ISIS for what it is. We aren't being baited and reeled into to the radical rhetoric that its supporters find so appealing.

In fact, ISIS's propaganda targets the uniformed, poor, unemployed, illiterate -- and promises a lot to those people. Just like with gangs, ISIS also promises a feeling of "family", and to many of its members, they've never had a "family". If they did, it was probably blown up or killed by someone else. Its easy to swoop in take advantage of instability and destitute people, radicalize and energize them with your twisted version of Islam and brainwash them into killing people.

a reply to: MystikMushroom
I couldn't agree with you more.
There are dozens of ways to go about getting your issue addressed. I might not agree 100% with their method of seeking redress but I know they are speaking the truth.
Like you, I fear the one or two "nutjobs" or "implants" that might show up.

originally posted by: diggindirt
a reply to: MystikMushroom
I couldn't agree with you more.
There are dozens of ways to go about getting your issue addressed. I might not agree 100% with their method of seeking redress but I know they are speaking the truth.
Like you, I fear the one or two "nutjobs" or "implants" that might show up.

Yep, and that's why the FBI's penchant for using non-FBI "informants" is such a dangerous game. They've been caught time and time again encouraging, pushing, and even giving fake bomb parts to people...only later to turn around and arrest them on terrorism charges. They know exactly how to push people in the direction of radical action.

If you are worth your salt in the conspiracy world, you know that for decades the FBI has been infiltrating the militias of the USA (along with biker gangs, white supremacist groups, and others)...This entire thing could be the brainchild of some section chief, with informants pushing and urging these guys to occupy that little gift shop.

All it takes is for one or two crazies, that "unknown element" to take it upon themselves to deviate from the informant's careful plans to cause something like the OKC bombing. This isn't a game, sometimes the people you are pushing and trying to entrap can escape your control, with disastrous consequences.

And if this is a 100% organic movement, the feds better deal with it in an intelligent non-violent way. If they start shooting, the militia guys shoot back and then it escalates causing a "Remember the Alamo!" type martyr situation.

If they ignore them, it'll just cause tensions to rise and people might snap. If these guys can't accomplish anything with their little siege, unstable/crazy elements might take it upon themselves to cross that scary line.

a reply to: MystikMushroom
Yes indeed. Heck, the feds had people infiltrating the Peace Movement in the '60s and AIM in the '70s.

A few years ago they were infiltrating militias and any group that insisted on standing up for the rights of the people or the rights of the states. They usually managed to get themselves asked to leave.

Leadership is important. The BLM could use some.

a reply to: diggindirt

Most people that work for the feds (BLM) are just paper pushers doing what they're told so they don't loose their jobs. Most don't call shots, only process paperwork or hand in research to other people. Very few decisions of importance are made by anyone..it all rolls downhill.

a reply to: JohnnyElohim

It was an apology for terrorism.

ISIS are terrorists.

It was an apology for ISIS.

Simple logic.

While we're here, what "overwhelming military superiority" do ISIS have? Compared to the girl scouts? In some parts of Iraq, they were being held at bay by Kurdish militias on bicycles.

a reply to: MystikMushroom

So your post doesn't apply to ISIS because you retrospectively redefine terrorism.

a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese

The rebels in Star Wars were considered "terrorists" to the Storm Troopers I'm pretty sure.

Our Founding Fathers and the patriots that fought in the Revolutionary War carried out acts of terrorism. If you were to time travel to England around that time, I'm sure that is what they would have been called in England.

One man's freedom fighter is a another man's terrorist.

If you're on the receiving end of the attacks, they come off as terrifying and thus -- terrorism.

If you were to ask an ISIS member if they consider themselves a terrorist, they'd probably say no. To us, however, their attacks are designed to instill fear and terrorize us. An ISIS member may turn and point the finger at the US drone strike program and call the USA the biggest terrorists of all.

It's all a matter of who you are and what perspective you are viewing the world from. The world isn't black and white, good and bad. It may be easier to think that way, as it makes dealing with the world feel like a safer world. Well, I'm sorry to tell you that the world can't be cut up and divided like that, there are shades of grey between the lines, and depending on who/what/where you are, the definition of "terrorist" changes.

a reply to: MystikMushroom
Yes, thus the need for leadership at BLM. They've shown precious little ability to compromise and diffuse these situations. They seem to prefer to escalate by actions such as those taken against the Hammonds.

originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese
a reply to: JohnnyElohim

It was an apology for terrorism.

ISIS are terrorists.

It was an apology for ISIS.

Simple logic.

Okeydokey. Would you please supply a quote?

While we're here, what "overwhelming military superiority" do ISIS have? Compared to the girl scouts? In some parts of Iraq, they were being held at bay by Kurdish militias on bicycles.

You must have skipped over this part of my post: "But they don't have said military superiority, so they implore their supporters to undertake rather lame lone-wolf attacks on their behalf."

a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese
I think you've confused the meaning of apology and definition. To define something is not to "apologize" for it.

It is the habit of some to lump people who have a valid grievances with governmental policies and implementation with violent extremists who are killing indiscriminately. That's what the people calling the Oregon protesters are doing by this silly "Vanilla ISIS" label. After all, it's easier to mock and follow msm's lead than to study the issues and come up with possible solutions. It is easier, I mean, until the grievance is yours, the problem on your doorstep.

I would be in Oregon in a heartbeat to support this if I didn't have a job and a family.

I would also live in Colorado to smoke weed all day if I didn't have a job and a family.

I would travel back to Africa to kill ISIS if I didn't have a job and a family.

I guess I have white privilege. Hence choices.

I guess I will never be part of a revolution.....ugh

Oh snap I just lost $20k in my 401k overnight......moving it over from high to medium risk.

This only after a third world nation immigrant hand washes my QX80.
(Just kidding I wash it myself, their big belt buckles scratch the paint.)

Day dreaming of being part of the Oregon movement,

Ruf

Why is it surprising that the leftist would respond with ridicule and minimization?
Thats all they have!
Its the last refuge of the arrogant. The only weapon of the morally and rationally weak.
None of the average twitter followers who make up the Free "Stuff" Army have the capacity to put together the 2+2 that equals government tyranny here. The Leftist elite that push this know all to well that they cant have anyone stand up to and delegitimize the government. They cant have anyone stand on the principles of private property ownership. They cant have someone demonstrate that it is counter to the principles of the founding fathers to have a Federal government so powerful that it holds "ownership" to more than 35% of the landmass within the US.
A government so powerful that it can use its police powers to strip you of private property under the guise of dubious environmental "science" is powerful enough to target you for any reason. It is the eye of Mordor and once its gaze is upon you the full power of its Orc army will descend on you.
These people know that and they are standing up to it.
The weaklings who do nothing but ridicule them are whistling past the grave yard. They are mocking the victims least they have to confront the fact that the inevitable purge is coming and they will be first on the list of those that disappear. Recall that the first group that Stalin killed off were the witty intellectuals.