UK democracy and the Ban Trump Petition - Something Stinks!!

This post isn't really in relation to the Ban Trump Petition but more to do with the British democracy (or lack of!). However, this Petition in particular has raised many issues which I have been watching from a distance for a while.

For those not from the UK the Petition idea was created by David Cameron when he came into power. He thought it would give the British public the chance to have a voice on important political matters. The system works where a petition can be created by anyone with regard to anything but to receive a Government response it must receive 10,000 signatures and to have any chance of debate in Parliament the signatures received must be over 100,000.

When the Petition to Ban Trump was created and when it first reached 100,000 signatures it was then mentioned on BBC News and Sky News as well as actively promoted in newspapers such as the Guardian etc. It was also mentioned on Question Time (a political program shown on BBC on Thursday nights where a panel usually made up of some MP's and others are questioned by the public). A member in the audience asked the panel whether Trump should be banned from UK in view of his comments. One member on the panel said he thought he should and it appeared so did the majority of the British people considering the amount of signatures the Petition had received (it had received 450,000 by then). At the time another member of the audience pointed out that 450,000 signatures didn't exactly constitute all of the British public seeing as the population was 65 million. This comment was quickly brushed aside as it didn't fit with the agenda on the BBC.

What was never mentioned on any of the main news outlets was that just that very day a counter Petition had been created asking for Trump not to be banned petition.parliament.uk...

When I looked at this Petition 24 hours after it had been created it had received 60,000 signatures but then when I went to look later that same day the number of signatures had dropped by 30,000! I thought I was imagining the amount I had seen that morning until I went on to different forums and everyone was talking and ranting about it. Some people had seen the signatures disappear in front of their eyes and some had screenshots and were going to write to their MP's. Many people did contact their MP's and the reply that came back was there had been some fraudulent activity! Shortly, after this Petition stopped being signed because I think people just gave up although today I have seen people have started signing it again probably in view of the fact that the Petition asking for Trump to be banned is now being debated.

The Daily Express must also have heard about the missing signatures and decided to do some probing of their own and found that many of the signatures on the Petition to Ban Trump were duplicated many times - article is here www.express.co.uk...

I find it totally surprising after the Express Article that this Petition hasn't been thrown out.

However, what I find really shocking is that although this Petition has been actively promoted by most of the big names in British media nothing has been mentioned about the fact that just a week after the Paris attacks and just shortly before Trump came out with his comment another Petition was created called:-

Stop all immigration and close the UK borders until ISIS is defeated.

and the wording is:

"In February 2015 Dr Shea, Nato’s Deputy Assistant Secretary General for Emerging Security Challenges, warned there would be IS jihadists on the refugee boats. IS also threatened to flood Europe with 500,000 jihadists.

▼More details

Allowing uncontrolled immigration and taking in these refugees potentially endangers the entire UK population. At any other time in our history this would be tantamount to a declaration of war and borders would be closed.

www.express.co.uk...

www.dailymail.co.uk... -Europe-psychological-weapon-bombed.html"

The link to this is here petition.parliament.uk...


This Petition received 450,000 signatures within the first few days of signing but was never mentioned anywhere in any of the media and although the wording wasn't exactly what Trump had said it more or less was asking for people to be stopped from coming into the Country until we could be sure we were safe as a Country.

The Daily Mail did an article about this a couple of weeks ago www.dailymail.co.uk...

So this is why I say something stinks in this Country. This isn't about Trump's comments because I didn't sign either Petition but it does raise the question why is one agenda being pushed constantly by all main news channels and the other voice of the British public is being all but silenced. Incidentally the Petition asking for our borders to be closed hasn't received a debate date!

The people I have seen on television who did sign the Petition to Ban Trump have been mainly muslims! This is another thing to consider how many of the 550,000 signatures are from the muslim population? Don't get me wrong I can understand muslims being angered and annoyed by Trump's comments but for the purposes of the role of the Petitions it puts a different slant on it doesn't it? Why has it been allowed to go ahead for debate when the Daily Express has found proof of fraudulent activity. Why has the other petition been ignored? Why did thousands of signatures disappear off the Petition asking for him not to be banned.

Incidentally this isn't the first time a Petition has swayed the Government. The decision to let 20,000 refugees into the UK arose after a Petition was created asking for refugees to be taken in after the photograph of the little boy. That petition raised 450,000 signatures but was promoted by Amnesty and all the huge organisations and at the same time a Petition was created asking for there to be a Stop to Immigration. This did get debated but by several people who just said the people who had signed that Petition were bigoted! Its also not the first time that many signatures have just disappeared. There have been other petitions where people have seen signatures disappear but have had no proof because they didn't have screenshots etc. A democracy is supposed to be about the view of the majority and yet at the moment our Country seems to be being run by the left wing brigade!

a reply to: anxiouswens

I believe the moral of your OP is NO gov't can be trusted. All need over-site.

That over-site and the counter balance of opposition parties is negated by now arrogant groups that hold sway over both sides and opinion controlling media.

At least, that's what I'm 'led' to believe.....sigh

a reply to: anxiouswens


The answer is pretty simple:

One of these causes is to debate the use of existing laws to prevent a hate preacher from entering our country, just as we have applied it to other hate preachers.
The other is a blanket call to abandon all Human rights of those seeking protection from persecution in our nation, something we have committed to for decades.

Trump is a preacher of hate who we should prevent from entering.
Refugees are innocent people in need of safety and we have a moral and ethical duty to provide that, those claiming that this should not be done are asking for us to abandon basic Human rights.

Obviously, we are not as a country going to bow down to right wing crazies who want to abandon Human rights all based on their own paranoia, delusions, xenophobia and hate.

I dont think this is so much of a by-product of media corruption or bias but rather the way our society is now socially constructed.

People might disagree with this but in the UK if you turn round as say "I will ban all Muslims from my Hotel" you are going to open yourself up to a pretty expensive legal battle because the law says you cannot do crap like that. It is the legal position currently in the UK that if you publicly made a disparaging comment about a whole group in society be it against LGBT, ethnic groups or religious groups you are opening yourself up to a whole world of ridicule because as a nation we simply do not tolerate it.

Nor do I think we should tolerate it, I dont want to live in a country where a hotel owner for example can say "I am not letting any Catholics stay here because all catholics are pedo's" which is kind of comparable to what trump is saying when he says he is going to build a grate all to keep out the Mexican rapists and murders only Trump is being even more extreme in my view.

Now in our "politically correct" society we are basically taught from a young age that you don't say things like "[Mexico] are sending people that have lots of problems, and they are bringing those problems to us. They are bringing drugs, and bringing crime, and their rapists". So when he says this and other stuff about banning all Muslims form entering America and so on we British who are either on centrist or on the left find that quite shocking. As such of course the media is going to make Trump out to be the big bad man because according to our politically correct society that is exactly what he is.

Now I do not know when this happened but apparently being "politically correct" is now a bad thing it gets twisted in to meaning you have no freedom of speech or that people are being over sensitive or even that its Orwellian newspeak. That is all rubbish politically correctness is just a term used to describe a policies, language and behaviours that promote equality, reduce social injustice and attempts to ensure that all groups in society are given the same opportunists and respect they deserve. This idea that being politically correct is about policing language is entirely a right wing manipulation of the phrase. I am glad i live in a politically correct society that endeavours to ensure that no group is disadvantaged or disrespected through xenophobia. I am proud that regardless of race colour or creed every man woman and child is legally ensured that they will be treated with respect.

Now if that makes me a left wing hippy nut bag then i guess that is what i am.

This is how a politically correct and tolerant society works, we call out and challenge those who think it is ok to de-mine the opportunists of other for no reason other than some form of xenophobia. That is why the media are giving this some airtime because we potentially have the next president of the United States of America behaving exactly like the kind of person we as a politically correct society seek to challenge and shun. There is nothing undemocratic about wanting to ensure that we live in a politically correct society until such a point as the electorate vote in the BNP and National Front.

If you don't like how this politicly correct society works move somewhere else.

a reply to: anxiouswens

It's called the "tyranny of the majority", oppressive populism, giving people who have no stake in the end result the power to decide the result, simply because they represent a majority.

originally posted by: Rocker2013
a reply to: anxiouswens


The answer is pretty simple:

One of these causes is to debate the use of existing laws to prevent a hate preacher from entering our country, just as we have applied it to other hate preachers.
The other is a blanket call to abandon all Human rights of those seeking protection from persecution in our nation, something we have committed to for decades.

Trump is a preacher of hate who we should prevent from entering.
Refugees are innocent people in need of safety and we have a moral and ethical duty to provide that, those claiming that this should not be done are asking for us to abandon basic Human rights.

Obviously, we are not as a country going to bow down to right wing crazies who want to abandon Human rights all based on their own paranoia, delusions, xenophobia and hate.

Unfortunately, the hate speech seems to be coming from you.

A suspension of importing refugees until the vetting process is properly worked out is a proper course of action . Even Canada isn't accepting ANY single males as refugees. Where's you hate rhetoric on that. It is called prudence.

I have no idea what your agenda is and couldn't care less. Pushing the moral buttons, selectively, is pure garbage.

P.S. How many refugees has you living in YOUR home??? I thought not.

I am neutral with regards to Trump, I have no interest in whether he is allowed to visit the U.K or not. I don't particularly agree with what the guy says, but I feel he has a right to express himself and for people to make their own minds up.

However, if these petitions are not legitimate i.e they are being manipulated in order to drive an agenda, then an investigation is warranted and measures need to be introduced to ensure there is no repeat in future.

As a matter of interest who do you think could be behind the manipulation?

One thing though, petitions have been around for quite some time, way before Cameron became P.M. I remember signing a petition back in 2007. I can't remember what it related to, but I noticed there was another petition at the time calling for Brown to resign and for a General Election to be called.

I believe they were suspended in April 2010 and then Cameron reintroduced them. I don't think we should give him the credit for introducing petitions.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Unfortunately, the hate speech seems to be coming from you.

A suspension of importing refugees until the vetting process is properly worked out is a proper course of action . Even Canada isn't accepting ANY single males as refugees. Where's you hate rhetoric on that. It is called prudence.

I have no idea what your agenda is and couldn't care less. Pushing the moral buttons, selectively, is pure garbage.

P.S. How many refugees has you living in YOUR home??? I thought not.

Absolutely right. They want to ban entry to someone because that someone wants to ban entry to others. Except one has prudent reasons, the others because they just don't like him. Just think about that for a moment...

Yet this is to be debated in Parliament, even though it is a waste of time. Trump may be a moron, but he's done nothing to ban him from the UK except excite the press and a few people who probably never actually listened to what he said.

Is this a lesson in groupthink, rather than serious topics.

It's a waste of time to debate, because Trump has done nothing to ban him from the UK.

a reply to: anxiouswens

I don't know how to fix it over there, but I know there is a spot here for you in America if they no longer represent you or the safety are your people, then again I don't know we are much better off.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Truth be told, I hadn't.

Game, set, match.

a reply to: paraphi

Agreed people seem to be getting pissed that when half a million voters in the UK make their needs know parliament decides to have a chat about it. Now to me that seems to be something i would expect in a democratic society nothing wrong with that. Now i would like to see him banned but i know that is not going to happen, parliament will debate this for about 5 minutes and then we will get some publication saying he is not going to be banned. In the end Trump will have got his nick-nax in a twist over nothing.

There was once a similar petition to keep Snoop Dogg out too......

People get worked up over things all the time (mainly daily fail readers), a few months later it's all forgotten and no-one cares.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Are we sure the 500,000 actually live in the UK? I somehow doubt that 50 people in UK give a toss about Trump's comments.

I would love to see how many were Americans looking to spike Trump's candidature and stuck their email address down.

WHO FIDDLED THE PETITION!
Thats what we should all be concentrating on.

The petitions should work like this:
You sign, and you enter a nickname, much like we do on forums.
Everyone should then have the ability to view ALL the names on the petition.
That way people can see whether their name has been removed.

originally posted by: paraphi
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Are we sure the 500,000 actually live in the UK? I somehow doubt that 50 people in UK give a toss about Trump's comments.

I would love to see how many were Americans looking to spike Trump's candidature and stuck their email address down.

I am pretty sure you can only vote from the UK but then again there are ways around that.

The Government has a policy of not routinely commenting on individual immigration or exclusion cases.

For good reasons the Government does not routinely comment on individual immigration and exclusion decisions.

The Home Secretary may exclude a non-European Economic Area national from the UK if she considers their presence in the UK to be non-conducive to the public good.

The Home Secretary has said that coming to the UK is a privilege and not a right and she will continue to use the powers available to prevent from entering the UK those who seek to harm our society and who do not share our basic values.

Exclusion powers are very serious and are not used lightly. The Home Secretary will use these powers when justified and based on all available evidence.

The Prime Minister has made clear that he completely disagrees with Donald Trump’s remarks. The Home Secretary has said that Donald Trump’s remarks in relation to Muslims are divisive, unhelpful and wrong.

The Government recognises the strength of feeling against the remarks and will continue to speak out against comments which have the potential to divide our communities, regardless of who makes them. We reject any attempts to create division and marginalisation amongst those we endeavour to protect.

From the "Don't ban Trump from the United Kingdom" petition.

To be debated January 18th.

Kay...

a reply to: paraphi

The hive has spoken. Join us.

originally posted by: VoidHawk
WHO FIDDLED THE PETITION!
Thats what we should all be concentrating on.

The petitions should work like this:
You sign, and you enter a nickname, much like we do on forums.
Everyone should then have the ability to view ALL the names on the petition.
That way people can see whether their name has been removed.

I've signed plenty of Government petitions and the way it works is thus:-

You click to sign into petition

You enter your details i.e - your name, postcode and e-mail address

You then click to sign the petition

It then generates a message advising that they are sending a confirmation e-mail

You receive confirmation e-mail

Open e-mail and click to confirm it is you

Petition signed

Edit- the person who registered the petition can e-mail updates through the Government e-petition site. Some do, some don't.

I don't know if we can all see who has signed the petition, but I guess the person who registered the petition can.

Maybe that's where we should start. Who started the petition?

a reply to: anxiouswens

I didn't sign either Petition but it does raise the question why is one agenda being pushed constantly by all main news channels and the other voice of the British public is being all but silenced. Incidentally the Petition asking for our borders to be closed hasn't received a debate date!

The 50 Billion Dollar Question.

The 5 Billion Ton Pink Elephant In The Room.

The question I have asked hundreds of times in the last year.

It is so darned obvious that there is a game in play.

I have said it before and I will keep on saying it.

We are being played, and it is not game we are going to win as long as we want to keep our heads buried in the sand so we won't know when or who is kicking our ass.