Relating the belief in God to the belief in Santa.

Happy new years fellow members! It's been a bit since I've posted, and since most political topics are being actively discussed, I'll throw my own off- topic into the mix. This isn't exactly general chit chat but I was not sure where to put this thread.

I've seen at least a handful of atheists use the comparison of belief in God, to the belief in Santa - and it is not at all a reasonable comparison in my opinion- I don't care what you believe in, it's not about having the same views or ideas, it's not even about respecting others beliefs, you have every right to say what you'd like, I am attacking the comparison and giving my reasons it's a bad one, this is not against any one person, or any group with any beliefs, or group without.

There's some things we can be quite sure of in this world - we could get philosophical and dive into defining reality and consciousness and such but for the sake of this thread, we will keep it simple. The things we can be sure of, when it comes to observing our world and space are typically defined as scientific laws and theories. These laws and theories alike are very important - they are the result of observations and experimenting, and will further aid this process of observing, experimenting, creating, etc. I respect science, I believe in science and all that it can prove, I have no qualms with science, nor scientists.

On the other hand, most topics we discuss and think of in our daily lives have no place in science - politics, sports, news, discussions here, etc are all about how we personally interpret things, they are not scientific in basis, yet we are not told we are ridiculous in our ways and thoughts due to our un-robot like nature, right?

Why then is the belief in God ridiculed by some? Why is this aspect of our non scientific lives so important to atheists? (rather, the seemingly anti-theist portion of atheists)

Why is the topic and belief in aliens in our universe deemed intellectual by the very same people who deem a belief in God as unintelligent? There's no hard evidence showing aliens, or other beings exist.

Personally I believe the pursuit of answering the question "Does God exist?" would be rather enlightening to a scientist. This question goes into deeper thought, or gives answers to some question such as how far evolution and natural selection can advance, or what a race could achieve if peaceful collaboration was combined with far superior technology - only atheists define God as a mystical unicorn, as for me, the one that actually holds the belief, and without assumption, I'll stick with my mindset that God can be explained by science, and that God is a master of Science.

The social, psychological, anthropological and cultural ties to theism/deism is far more entailed and significant than a way to amuse children about presents once a year. It's not as simple as myth and folklore, it's not like a tale or fantasy - regardless of the actual truth of the matter, which no one has, theism is on an entirely different level than these other categories - and also not disproven, nor deemed to be for amusement nor entertainment. I highly doubt a well educated scientist would deem the belief in God comparable to the belief in Santa - it's just too different, regardless of your lack of belief.

We all subscribe to some belief that doesn't have complete proof, whether it's a stance on a conspiracy theory, a belief in forms of science or medicine not credited in modern society, any number of ideas that are not yet theories nor laws due to their hard to solve nature. Personally I believe we should drop the patronizing comparisons towards anyone's beliefs, but at the least recognize that Santa and God are not comparable - I realize this is statement is up for opinion, and I hope I have made my case on this matter appropriately.

Cheers, fellow members

Deadlyhope

PS. - realize this is more rambling than anything, I'm not actually super concerned people change their ways, or offended too much, just wanted to voice my opinion on the matter. May 2016 bring all of you good times.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
Why then is the belief in God ridiculed by some?

Because you keep asking....

a reply to: deadlyhope

Yes, we all have a shared history that involved religion. It's called a creation myth and it's a central part of every culture that ever existed. Why would any, like a Christian one, be any more valid than another like aborigines in Australia?

It's called a myth for a reason. The comparisons to Santa I saw were used to illustrate a point.

I also don't understand rabid atheism though. It's almost become a religious belief of it's own.

a reply to: Ksihkehe

I am not debating validity of one religion over another, I am mentioning belief in God overall. Mono theist, poly, deist, any of them.

Why is the topic and belief in aliens in our universe deemed intellectual by the very same people who deem a belief in God as unintelligent? There's no hard evidence showing aliens, or other beings exist.

The fact that there is more chance of there being any form of alien life be it single cell to multi cell to intelligent life due to insane size of the universe. Just think if we were the only life in this galaxy then fine... but think about all the countless star systems out there.

To counter the creation myth put forward by Christians the question would be:

How could god make the stars / heavens in 1 day and take 5 more to make a spit ball of a planet before resting? I know that the answer to this statment would be "you need to take it with a pinch of salt" but why? The Good Book(s) all basically state their truth who are we to say "oh its not meant like that"

You cant have people quoting scripture like Adel lyrics only to ignore the less known ones / songs.

Issue: People seem to forget the bible was written by man

Yes I am basing my opinions off of Drake's math... which was written by a man.

Whos to say whos wrong in this mixed up world.

All over the place today

a reply to: deadlyhope

Great thread especially as politics is getting boring, just different names for the same psychotic greed either for money, power or both.

I disagree with your view its disingenuous to compare Santa with God, simply because both concepts give humans hope.
Kiddies for the present they want and people for help, either in death or situations. Even the bible gives 'God' a human body when he speaks to Abraham - which should tell people something because when he spoke to Moses he was a flame.

Our scientific laws (which we can reproduce time and again etc) probably limit us because our senses relay information that they also limit. We know this because other species pick up on things we can't see or understand. A cat sits for hours watching something invisible to its owner and repeats this 'watching' but we have no clue what its seeing and can't measure it. Members of the same species (monkeys on different islands with no visible means of communication learn new concepts from others separated from them). I don't think this can be attributed only to heightened senses e.g. hearing only. (many cat owners will know what I am writing about with the watching)

I suspect the problem with God is what the priesthood subscribe to his powers. They go over what we understand as intelligent design that clearly occurs on this planet. They infer he watches every act and thought and controls our individual lives. The most stupid idea is that he created this planet for us to live on. If he did why experiment with other species first which we know from the fossil records. He is also credited with creating the universe - one look at the sheer number of stars should pose questions to anyone who thinks.

I think priestsreligious teachers have done humanity a complete disservice by indoctrinating humans into believing they are hideous with sin and need priests to cure them so they are fit to be judged by some invisible god. They are a vested interested 'secret police' to aid governance when it suits them and its effective, provided the priests themselves all sing from the same set of rules. Its actually the fight between the different religion's men that often cause wars and Daesh is a prime example of when religious teaching goes rogue and robs people of their natural humanity by poisoning their minds with hatred. I do believe that the purpose of the Good Samaritan was to remind us all that people either pagans or a different point of view are kind to each other naturally and want to help each other. A concept that existed well before the priesthood established itself.

WE haven't overhauled 'religion or its religious laws' to suit the world we live in today and that includes our concept of what and who God actually is, which surely should be a private matter in any case. Much of it is only applicable to early life in the desert and not fit for where we are in life today. But important because today we need to look at today's warlords, and question why many are from the religious teachers who demand blind acceptance. Its also the best 'blind' for politicians and their power brokers to hide behind. Laws have been manipulated to protect various people and their business interests against the rest of the world and its time to change that because God doesn't appear to be improving our world, more destroying it. (Sorry my reply is so long).

Historically speaking Saint Nicholas was a real person. At some point St. Nick was combined with pagan traditions, the birth of Jesus Christ and was used in more modern times as a retail sales promotion. IMO, Santa is far more real in our western culture than a Judeo/Christian creator god. You can say both characters today are shrouded in myth, but there is more to it than that.

Note: I'm not saying there isn't a lot of philosophical and scientific debate to prove the existence of a creator god and personally I believe that the universe is too complex and intricately balanced to ignore that possibility. However, there is more evidence to support the historical existence of Saint Nicholas than to support the Biblical stories about God.

These are the basic reasons I see no real comparison between the two characters and find the attempt to do so pretty lame. IMO it seems that this argument is based on some ignorant assumptions and no real facts. Basically it isn't a valid argument.

A few weeks ago I started to look into this and stumbled across something very interesting...

It seems that Santa may have been a deliberate fabrication designed as a counterfeit of the Lord Jesus Christ.

There appears to be far too many direct matches for this to have been an accident, or coincidental.

Nearly all Santa researchers agree that some traits of Santa was borrowed from Norse [Scandinavian] mythology. You have to be blind to not see the possible connection. And you have to be spiritually blind to not see the possible spiritual damage such a massive, false-faith, God-like, LIE is doing to the faith and trust of that young child.

I am sure many reading this are thinking, "Aw, c'mon, Santa Claus is just fantasy. What is the big deal. Nobody takes it serious." And that is where you are WRONG – DEAD WRONG! Those little children take their Santa very serious! They literally worship him!

THE GREAT IMPOSTER

They believe and love Santa with all their heart! Most parents would never teach their beautiful little children such a lie as Santa Claus. Most parents would never openly lie to their children. Especially something that is a blasphemous imposter of the Lord Jesus. And Satan knows this. So he disguises the lie in a nice little package of make-believe and fantasy. He creates a harmless ol' jolly fellow that just loves little children. And most parents think, "Now what could be wrong with that?" Of course, you and I do not take Santa serious.

We know Santa Claus is fantasy. But those little children are deceived in believing "with all their heart" in a god that is a replacement for the Lord Jesus Christ. What happens when these little children realize that Santa Claus is a lie? What happens when they later are presented with the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ? What happens when they are asked to "trust and believe in the Lord Jesus Christ"?

www.av1611.org...

The following conversation of two young boys actually took place. And I am sure it has taken place many times. They were discussing the Lord Jesus Christ. Here is the conversation: One boy asks the other, "What do you think of all this Jesus Christ stuff"? And the other boy replies, "It all sounds like another Santa Claus to me – probably just another lie." Santa is Satan's counterfeit of the Lord Jesus Christ. Once you get that child believing with "all their heart" in Santa then the next logical step is – Jesus and Santa they are both the same – and they are both a LIE.

Obviously, not every person that believes in Santa Claus as a child will deny the Lord Jesus Christ. The truth is, the author of this article "believed in" Santa Claus as a child. The author did not trust the Lord Jesus Christ until he was 20 years old. And furthermore, there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever, that the lie and god-like attributes of Santa Claus influenced my early doubts and confusion about the Lord Jesus Christ.

www.endtimewarning.com...

'Vigilant Christian' has a video on this as well...
SANTA CLAUS The Great Imposter - Google Search

a reply to: deadlyhope

First I would ask you not to bracket all atheist/agnostics together.
Most religious folks would respond deeply insulted if I told them that they (Jews, Muslims, Christians etc.) are pretty much the same to me (except for different funny hats and robes), so please do as you would be done by.

Second, this:

originally posted by: deadlyhope
On the other hand, most topics we discuss and think of in our daily lives have no place in science - politics, sports, news, discussions here, etc are all about how we personally interpret things, they are not scientific in basis, yet we are not told we are ridiculous in our ways and thoughts due to our un-robot like nature, right?

You can't be serious about this.

Ever heard about the field of political science?
Also, of course the news (journalism) should be based on independently verifiable facts - else its propaganda or demagogy, and deserves nothing but to be ridiculed for it.

You're right about sports though... bickering and banter are a crucial part of sports.

Last:

originally posted by: deadlyhope
Why then is the belief in God ridiculed by some? Why is this aspect of our non scientific lives so important to atheists? (rather, the seemingly anti-theist portion of atheists)

It is only ever of importance to me (and most atheist/agnostics I know) when religious zealotry tries to intervene with politics, or public life. In other words: where it has no place. And this vigilance will not end.

originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: Ksihkehe

I am not debating validity of one religion over another, I am mentioning belief in God overall. Mono theist, poly, deist, any of them.

I'm not sure the distinction. If you believe in some god/gods it's still a creation myth. If you believe any creation myth it's a valid question to ask why you favor one when there are many that exist.

As I said before the mention of santa I saw has been to illustrate a point.

a reply to: deadlyhope

Belief in Santa is a nice, almost safe, adjunct to the belief in a masterful God. Plus, it is a tremendous money making for those that have a hand in promoting and sustaining such traditions whether they believe in them or merely tag along via some avenue of supporting consumerism.

I mentioned this in a post yesterday. The reason I do compare Santa to god is to make an easily understandable comparison to the way I personally feel about religion.

It is 100% true that I see and feel no difference between the two. This is my personal view of course and I am aware that others really believe in an omnipotent, all knowing and generally infallible being that has no substance in our reality, yet can influence every single human's life, even though there had been animals around for millions of years before us in which he/she/it had no interest in.

However inside of me, that feeling does not exist. To me it's like watching adults shouting that Santa is real. I find it mind boggling and slightly worrying.

Because both promise presents if you are good.
I believe in God but not any religious god.
If you bleat on about religion we have the right to question and yes mock the religion (any will do all as bad as each other).
A wise man once said what right does anyone have to tell others who or what god is.

a reply to: deadlyhope
Go back and read the Santa thread again. This time really read it. Look at the ANALOGY the OP is conveying. The OP wasn't comparing Santa to god. If that's all you got. You completely missed the point. Put Peter Pan in place of Santa, if that will help you understand.

Why then is the belief in God ridiculed by some? Why is this aspect of our non scientific lives so important to atheists? (rather, the seemingly anti-theist portion of atheists)

Why is non-belief ridiculed by most?
Why is this aspect of our scientific lives so important to so many religious folks?
Why are some religions "hell bent" on making everyone on earth clones of themselves?

a reply to: deadlyhope

My daughter and I were talking about the Santa/God comparison, and she had (what I think) is a very interesting take on the situation: She compared those who question faith to those who once -- and still do -- deny PMS (premenstrual syndrome). Since it only affects women, half the population will never personally experience the symptoms, and can never personally know -- thus, the condition is easily denied by those who just don't know. Even among women, not all will suffer, nor will all suffer all the same symptoms, neither will those suffering any symptoms suffer to the same degree. And, as we all know, it's very easy to deny that which does not fall into our personal realm of experience. "Hey! It doesn't happen to me, so it can't happen to you!!!" One suffering the physical effects of PMS can describe those symptoms to others till they're blue in the face... and others can easily claim a different cause -- laziness, seeking attention, emotional instability, whatever -- or simply dismiss it all as made up from whole cloth. No one can prove their claims and no one can disprove them, so it's all up for debate and subject to personal opinion based on one's own personal experience.

In the end, we both agreed -- her as an agnostic and me as a person of faith -- that the biggest problem are those people who believe they know what they cannot know and arrogantly try to force their "truths" on others -- whether from a position of faith or the lack thereof. Especially those who do so in the most hateful and hurtful ways.... which says more about them than the people they're attacking.

originally posted by: ColCurious
It is only ever of importance to me (and most atheist/agnostics I know) when religious zealotry tries to intervene with politics, or public life. In other words: where it has no place. And this vigilance will not end.

This is why.

When people use their beliefs about "God" to JUSTIFY an imposition of those beliefs on others (abortion laws, marriage laws, discrimination laws, etc.), it's important to remind them that there's no more validity to the existence of "God" than there is to the existence of Santa, the Easter Bunny or the Tooth Fairy.

As far as I'm concerned, they're ALL made-up external authority figures used to control people's behavior.

I support the free exercise of religion 100%, AS LONG AS it doesn't impose on my life. But if someone uses "God's Word" to tell me what to do with my body, who I can and cannot marry, or that they won't serve me because of who I am, then I have a big problem with that.

Too many religious people try to force their beliefs in what is supposed to be secular law. And many are quite successful.

a reply to: Benevolent Heretic

Agreed.

I'm definitely pro Constitution, including separation of church and state, and would never vote the likes of ted Cruz into office for instance because of his desire to force religious beliefs into law.

a reply to: Klassified

Santa thread? There's no one thread I'm pointing out, it's many threads, over a long period of time. Most don't say "here's an analogy", they more say "this thread is stupid because your belief in God is as silly as belief in Santa Claus"

It's typically used as an attack on a person's belief, a way to deny their opinions simply because their version of morality, or their ideas or political stances make others uncomfortable.

a reply to: Hecate666

You see and feel no difference between the two?

Study any field of education that goes into culture, society, anthropology.. Its way, way different. Studying ancient Greece and studying their beliefs is fascinating, I never once thought "oh wow they all had to be crazy people and similar to children believing in Santa Claus" though - the comparison is vastly different.

Mind boggling and slightly worrying?

I'm very boggled and worried that some people think they know what's out there, when the observable universe is billions of light years, and many scientists theorize that this is a tiny speck of space.

Einstein had the best stance in my opinion. Something like "there's no way of knowing"

a reply to: ColCurious

I am very much against religion intervening in politics and public life, and you will notice I used words like "group of atheists" I don't paint with broad brushes, I admit I could be talking about a fraction of a percent, thus my topic attacking a comparison, not any people, as I originally stated.