Tisulsky find — Girl in a casket

originally posted by: Byrd

Wolfenz

Created Structures in Peru in Puma Punku ..
making precised interlocking Blocks like the H Blocks ..
that Seams to be looking like they were in a press mold
from a manufacturing Assembly process
with out any known written language on top of that

Let's set up the time and place, first...

Puma Punku was a place built in the last stages of the Tiwanaku empire (and by the Tiwanaku) - around 600-1000 AD. (the basics of the empire are at this link)

Peru is one of the great cradles of civilization, rising about 1500 BC (in other words, over 2,000 years before Puma Punku.)

Ok I read all about this about both sites .. but I do Agree that the natives Built Tiwanaku ... but its hard to swallow Puma Punk Especaily when the Incas Non Written language ! they only had Knotting ! to tell History .. Much like my ancestors did with a Wampum Belt !! that tells a story .. and SO how can the Inca make a Complex Construction like the interlock H Blocks without Records Diagrams let alone An Actuall written language unlike the Mayas and Aztecs that did... explain that to me ..

and there not a Place on Earth like Bolivia Peru Puma Punku
let alone claimed to be 2000, years old... from carbon dating ..
and they were just came out of Nowhere...

It's only 600 years (at most) old. And they didn't come out of nowhere. The empire that built this had been around since 300 AD (so 300-600 years at that time, longer than the history of the United States.) At the time they built Puma Punku, they had an empire and were a popular pilgrimage site for preColumbian South America.

As you can see if you check what archaeologists and others wrote, the area started out as farming and grew through trade. It was part of the area that later becomes the Incan empire (see the similarity in the stonework?) - but their "parent civilization" (which goes back to 1,000 BC) is the Chavin Culture

And, if you will click the link on the Chavin Culture, there, you will see many examples of the wonderful stonework just like that at Puma Punku.

but your claiming the site was originally farming ? what the Archaeologists wrote is possible Theory not so sure if its fact.. the farming the found probably was just part of their agriculture to feed themselves around the area around the site .. Chavin Culture :: the only Site i would agree with Tiwananco with the stone work for sure... d not Puma Punku I don't see it ... Sorry ...

There must of been someone not originally from that land that Built them ..

Why must there have been? It looks like the lovely stonework of their parent culture, which stretched back centuries before they showed up.

Why because I can NOT wrap my Head on a Non written Language society coming out of the Stone Age to the bronze age primitive natives building such a complexed task , without any past progress lead up to that kind of complexity when you look at the H Blocks !! unless a traveler from the Old World brought their Knowledge to the Area and Taught them... ( could it be Possible ? ) that.. Greece Sumerians , India Egyptians are the possible candidates .. ... that simple ...

...wheres are the Records murals , wall paintings , of them building these structures , not even Egypt
except one pictorial painting

Actually, there's more than that.

And if you think about it, what ruler (or prince or duke or count or other noble) has pictures of people building things in his monuments or records detailing how to cut stone in their libraries and monuments?

well... I guess i have to look more into depth of Europe and Asia although it may be there as a lot of hidden stuff is locked up in the royal vaults in Europe

I Do see , In Egypt Iran Iraq China India you can see the Steps of progress from improvements in basic to advanced Technology , not so much in the New World..

Possibly because the sites you read didn't make you aware of the other civilizations in the New World?

Im Aware of other civilizations in south America... don't get me started of the Mound Builders in North America LOL from Ohio to the Mississippi to Florida .. but its more like China Mounds and Pyramids then South America and the New Hampshire Stone henge is like Ireland's Ancient ruins

so with all this, tell me why... its so wrong..... ???? that they are no similar .. link me !! to a site ... so i can see what both of you see..

I don't really want to dump a huge list of links here (and don't have time right now) but I will come back later and link stuff on the Americas.

ah come on just a few

Apparently Bryd an Educated Collage Grad. in different
Fields has been to Egypt and taught Classes..
but doesn't see what Forester forSees ... in similaritys
between the Old and the New World ,

True. I look at the art, the language, the culture, the mythology, the symbolism, etc, etc. I don't look at a picture of a bird made from bone in Egypt carved in 1500 BC and one made from bone in Alaska dated to 1200 AD and tell people that Eskimos regularly visited and traded with Egypt based on both places having an artifact of a bird carved from bone.

Forester, however, is perfectly willing to make this connection.

LOL... I agree with that! Bow and Arrows, the basics , but we are not talking about basics are we .. we are talking a building structures the complexity and how they are build...

There's been a team at Tiahuanaco for the last 30 years (unless they've stopped in the last few years) studying the site and the ingenious irrigation system the natives put in for thousands of acres of farming. Been a while since I checked in on their work.

The place was a center for millions of people. It was absolutely an agricultural site.

You refer to your other posts on the topic as evidence that you know what you're talking about. It is actually only evidence that you know what you posted in some other thread.

Here you don't even know about the massive agricultural use of the area, claiming it must just be some guy's "theory."

Exposed.

Harte

originally posted by: Informer1958
a reply to: Chadwickus

Obviously you don't know how coal is formed, there is massive amounts of pressure involved.

A 10 foot thick seam of peat is needed to form a 1 foot seam of coal.

This sarcophagus was found within a 20 metre seam of coal.

I understand that, and I know how coal is created. So what is your point.

Furthermore, studies of coal beds that are in contact with sandstone layers, along with studies of dinosaur tracks where dinosaurs must have walked on top of the peat layers before their burial to eventually form coal beds, demonstrate that peat-to-coal compaction ratios of between 2 to 1 and 1 to 1 are more realistic.5 Such ratios are also consistent with the measured compaction around many coal balls (limestone nodules containing fossils of plants and/or marine snails, clams, or lampshells) and compaction of wood that is sometimes found in coal beds.

answersingenesis.org...

After only 75 days, the original plant and wood materials still transformed into coal material, comparable chemically to coal from the same area of Indonesia.

originally posted by: Harte
There's been a team at Tiahuanaco for the last 30 years (unless they've stopped in the last few years) studying the site and the ingenious irrigation system the natives put in for thousands of acres of farming. Been a while since I checked in on their work.

The place was a center for millions of people. It was absolutely an agricultural site.

You refer to your other posts on the topic as evidence that you know what you're talking about. It is actually only evidence that you know what you posted in some other thread.

Here you don't even know about the massive agricultural use of the area, claiming it must just be some guy's "theory."

Exposed.

Harte

IM Speaking of PUMA Punku not Tiahuanaco so let's get that Strait !

Tiahuanaco was created by the native more Likely Cultivation yeah Sure ...

Where did i say evidence ? I just mentioned that i talked about the sites before

show me Links... Harte seeing that Bryd and Marduk are refusing to do so...

wow like putting words in peoples mouths huh?

and yes i do know about the agricultural all around
South America Especially Machu Picchu it screams it!

the only failure i have, is not going to these site to see for my self ..
maybe when i retire .. lol i just have to go by others mentioning in videos and pics and books
and Documents from legit people ... or people like me having a curiosity ,
that has been there at those places the ones that felt the ground
touched the stones.. just a few people i know .. and had contact with..

Here you don't even know about the massive agricultural use of the area, claiming it must just be some guy's "theory."

Exposed.

Harte

ahh Puma Punku Harte is what im talking about !!

ohh!! yeah of course its being farmed as of now ! around the perimeter
seen some pics with livestock around the stones close to the site!

So a Theory stand when the buildings were stills standing ...






So you going to tell me that
these the primitive early bronze Age people
with no written language except for Knot Roping Quipu


Built these interlocking H Blocks


i cant even think that Archimedes could design such a interlocking Block
let alone a primitive.. native

so after this and this thread has been totally derailed
lets make a different thread and leave this alone..

surprising the mods are letting this still go ...

originally posted by: Wolfenz

IM Speaking of PUMA Punku not Tiahuanaco so let's get that Strait !

Again, as you have already been told, Pumapunku is one of the temples at Tiahuanaco, they are not separate places
You don't seem to understand the first thing about the site, the Tiahuanaco culture was well known for interlocking brickwork. Its what they did all over the place
no one is going to provide you links to things you can easily find yourself with google
I have no vested interest in educating you, when you haven't done any research yourself

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Wolfenz

IM Speaking of PUMA Punku not Tiahuanaco so let's get that Strait !

Again, as you have already been told, Pumapunku is one of the temples at Tiahuanaco, they are not separate places
You don't seem to understand the first thing about the site, the Tiahuanaco culture was well known for interlocking brickwork. Its what they did all over the place
no one is going to provide you links to things you can easily find yourself with google
I have no vested interest in educating you, when you haven't done any research yourself

How sure are you about that ?
there is not even a stone's like Puma Punku or vice versa between the sites

what i see mostly in Tiwananco is Stones ( Rock ) Pebble Stacking construction Low Tech
Puma Punku is High Advance Stone Machinery Manufacturing press mold looking High Tech
is what i see ! and both around the seam time period right ?

Native 's probably made the site in Tiwananco it fits their Bronze Age technology !

it sure doesn't Fit in Puma Punku ... So more likely a group that is more Advanced

Tiahuanaco culture was well known for interlocking brickwork. Its what they did all over the place

they are ? Show a Pic !

I didnt see interlocking H Blocks around the Site !
except for irregular Stone Forming which in a way interlocks


Need to teach me myself he say, not going to educate he says, LOL


I researched plenty ..

originally posted by: Wolfenz

IM Speaking of PUMA Punku not Tiahuanaco so let's get that Strait
I researched plenty ..

Yet, you don' realise that Pumapunku is in the middle of and part of Tiwanaku, so what value does any of your research have if you haven't even grasped the basics.

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: Wolfenz

IM Speaking of PUMA Punku not Tiahuanaco so let's get that Strait
I researched plenty ..

Yet, you don' realise that Pumapunku is in the middle of and part of Tiwanaku, so what value does any of your research have if you haven't even grasped the basics.

Tiwanaku is before Puma Punku before the entrance ...

There are structures after puma punku ? and not just farm land ?

LOL

all I see from Google Maps is The Modern town called Tiwanaco and to the right of it is the Ruins
and and south left is Puma Punku it does Not Say its Part of the Ancient Site just the Town Called Tiwananco


here are the Links !

google maps !


Tiwanaco Ruin site with town
www.google.com...@-16.5625046,-68.6755147,2104m
/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x915ebd0d7ef3b16f:0xaa7a53d0dc91931a!6m1!1e1

Puma Punku
www.google.com...@-16.5619527,-68.6796269,2104m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x915ebd09530150f9:0x8b4468411a7f066d!6m1!1e1


in the Middle all i see is farm land on the other side...

and let say the whole place is called Tiwanaco as present day
as you said..

ok...

doesn't mean it was part of Tiwanaco before Spanish settlers
took over the land ..

what im looking at is the Ruins in General

and the other side of Puma Punku is just farm land and a Dept ..
there may be some pieces of structure buried or
half buried stones on the other side ( south from the google Map )
but im not seeing it !

seem like you are grasping at straws ... marduk

originally posted by: [post=20362327]Wolfenz[/post


seem like you are grasping at straws ... marduk

No Again, you haven't researched the site properly
here is the opening sentence from wiki

Pumapunku is part of a large temple complex or monument group that is part of the Tiwanaku Site near Tiwanaku, Bolivia.

and here is your image again, this time with the distance included, I'd also like to point out here that you think Tiwanaku is the the "semi underground temple", which is what you have labelled Tiwanaku in your picture

So you are claiming, that despite the fact that the two temples are only 0.63 miles apart, that they are different cultures responsible. hahahaha

Here in fact is the actual site of Tiwanaku

So as it appears, you know absolutely nothing about this subject and you are accusing me of clutching at straws, Et Tu Brute
lol
The most amazing here for me, is that you think that the architecture is astounding because they used interlocking blocks
What do you think a brick is ?
Take a look at any structure anywhere in the world, you will find that most of them are made from interlocking bricks
So what this actually boils down to is your own credulity, because in your mind you don't know why or how they did it, that means that they didn't do it, again, this is cultural racism and as your last post clearly showed your complete ignorance to the facts of the Tiwanaku culture, its kinda obvious that you aren't interested in the truth, because you prefer your own unattested unsupported fantasies. Which makes those "Primitives" you were talking about more intelligent than you are

originally posted by: Marduk

originally posted by: [post=20362327]Wolfenz[/post


seem like you are grasping at straws ... marduk

No Again, you haven't researched the site properly
here is the opening sentence from wiki

Pumapunku is part of a large temple complex or monument group that is part of the Tiwanaku Site near Tiwanaku, Bolivia.

and here is your image again, this time with the distance included, I'd also like to point out here that you think Tiwanaku is the the "semi underground temple", which is what you have labelled Tiwanaku in your picture

So you are claiming, that despite the fact that the two temples are only 0.63 miles apart, that they are different cultures responsible. hahahaha

Here in fact is the actual site of Tiwanaku

So as it appears, you know absolutely nothing about this subject and you are accusing me of clutching at straws, Et Tu Brute
lol

So before Spanish settlers claimed the land
the whole area was called Tiwanaco ...??
is this what your saying ?

and yes im saying different cultures
different people making total different types of ares in different location to each other

why not ? isnt there cultures like that present day near boarders only a mile apart ?
different lifestyles and technology

yes i know what wiki has said ...
there are talking about Now not before the early 15th century ..

for one ..

the picture wasn't labeled by me .
it came of a random websites during google search with google maps ..

So you are claiming, that despite the fact that the two temples are only 0.63 miles apart, that they are different cultures responsible. hahahaha

Yup!! I am ..

well just maybe one was worshiping the other ..
you know as gods , with their high advanced tech then there own

so when was puma punku claimed to be a Temple ?

do we have present high tech near basic 3rd world like places ?

the Elite royals and the Peasants !

so if you get down to it..
you have a very high tech site that is .68 miles from a low tech site..

you believe apparently both sites are made from the same people.
( i get a kick out of that )

tell you what as either harte byrd or yourself have said
that The Pyramid of the Sun & Moon
have similar design artwork structure as Iran Iraq Ziguart
which it does, just like in the 1920s to the 1950s.
well known artwork fad.. called Art Deco ..
even tho.. different technique and styles .. but you can tell
it ART DECO ART .. that spread from America to Europe

pretty much when i see this ! i see similar copied art.
instead of just a 3 to 4 decades like Art Deco..
I see same type of artwork design in a few thousand years !
( just differnt types of materials that were used and only had from the surrounding areas )

Pyramids, its not like different just happened to wake up one day around the
World in different time periods and location and say im going to build
a 4 sided design and have it narrowed much as possible to the Top !
and have it as , either a Temple or a Tomb or both! or for a living space for a god!



it a passed on knowledge from one civilization another civilization ..
is what I am seeing through out time ..


ohh yeah isnt there Tittcaca near by ? NEAR A LAKE NEAR A oCEAN

were a possible traveler could OF landed and brought their knowledge to the site!

Clueless, pretty much everything you said there is wrong
, like your claim that pumapunku isn't a temple, its actually a temple amid a temple complex

Maybe spend about half an hour actually reading what credible websites say and then get back to me when you're approaching this without your credulity

Heres the things you have wrong
1. Pumapunku is a temple. It is a typical Tiwanaku temple made from an earth mound and then covered with stone
2. the entire area outlined in my second picture is the Tiwanaku site
3. There are more complex examples of stonework at the Subterranean temple which you linked to earlier
4. The culture which built the place is famous for its stonework, which is found all over the area
5. There is no evidence for a lost race or aliens, get over yourself.
You are talking about a species, which has been working with stone for 2.4 million years.


Until you can see the truth in those five points we have nothing further to discuss. I am not going to come down to your level of pointless credulity to discuss basics with you which you cannot accept

originally posted by: Marduk
Clueless, pretty much everything you said there is wrong
, like your claim that pumapunku isn't a temple, its actually a temple amid a temple complex

Maybe spend about half an hour actually reading what credible websites say and then get back to me when you're approaching this without your credulity

Heres the things you have wrong
1. Pumapunku is a temple. It is a typical Tiwanaku temple made from an earth mound and then covered with stone
2. the entire area outlined in my second picture is the Tiwanaku site
3. There are more complex examples of stonework at the Subterranean temple which you linked to earlier
4. The culture which built the place is famous for its stonework, which is found all over the area
5. There is no evidence for a lost race or aliens, get over yourself.
You are talking about a species, which has been working with stone for 2.4 million years.

Until you can see the truth in those five points we have nothing further to discuss. I am not going to come down to your level of pointless credulity to discuss basics with you which you cannot accept

Ok im back on my Meds ...

Cluessless ?

So where do you get off , Claiming the Ruins of Puma Punku was a Temple ?
just because its theorized at the Main Tiwanaco Site ?

NO Scientist Nor a Archaeologist can claim what the Hell the Structure was in Puma Punku ..

we have the pieces.. yet no one is sure of how to reconstruct it !

quote : from Slayer69 in one of his threads

I know that was a lot to take in all at once, so let's take a break from the skulls and look at what some have artistically created what Puma Punku/Tiwanaku could have possibly looked like when it wasn't broken, buried and scattered.

Heres the things you have wrong
1. Pumapunku is a temple. It is a typical Tiwanaku temple made from an earth mound and then covered with stone
2. the entire area outlined in my second picture is the Tiwanaku site
3. There are more complex examples of stonework at the Subterranean temple which you linked to earlier
4. The culture which built the place is famous for its stonework, which is found all over the area
5. There is no evidence for a lost race or aliens, get over yourself.
You are talking about a species, which has been working with stone for 2.4 million years.

1) Temple ? or a Library, Marketplace, a Port Station, ( puma Punku ) Typical because its more Accurate for a Bronze Age civilization..
2) yes I get that !! Outline is Tiwanaku as of NOW! present Day and when the Spaniards Settled
I doubt before WHITE MAN Came .. it may of been something else called something else..
3) where in Tiwanaku ? more complex places show me? and not a thrown off, from the Puma Punku site !
4) huh? what place Puma Punku ( of course its famous all over the area NOT! ) or Tiwananco which is more believable
5) ) LOL who said Aliens ? , Lost Race perhaps.. seeing certain Elongated Skulls were born that way and not binded
or a Civilization from the Old World to the New World


We as Humans ( modern MAN ) been on this Planet for 250 thousands years,
although scientist in the last decade are making that claim way older now 400,000
years , Hominids have been 2.4 million years the Apeman!


here ya go... I love this MEME! LOL so true!


this too...

a reply to: Byrd

I believe the Vikings were poking around much earlier then we think.

L'Anse aux Meadows

Discovered in 1960, it is the most famous site of a Norse or Viking settlement in North America outside Greenland.

Dating to around the year 1000, L'Anse aux Meadows is the only site widely accepted as evidence of pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact. It is notable for its possible connection with the attempted colony of Vinland established by Leif Erikson around the same period or, more broadly, with Norse exploration of the Americas.

en.wikipedia.org...

Let's add a little more to the pot.


Puma Punku is located at an altitude of 12,800 feet, which means it is located above the natural tree line, this means NO trees grew in that area which means that no trees were cut down in order to use wooden rollers.

The megalithic stones found at Puma Punku are among the largest on the planet.

There are stones at Puma Punku that weigh over 100 tons.

Finally, One of the most important archaeological artifacts ever discovered in Tiahuanaco or Puma Punku is the famous Fuente Magna Bowl. The Ceramic bowl has Sumerian cuneiform and Proto-Sumerian hieroglyphic written on it.

The original port of Tiahuanacu was built on the shores of Lake Titicaca less then 600 feet away, but whose coastline now lies some 12 miles away. According to author/researcher, Graham Hancock, scholars including Arthur Posansky, Becker, Kohlschutter, and Muller have concluded from astronomical investigations of the ecliptic, that the site may well have been constructed as far back as 12,000 BC making Tiwanaku (Tiahuanacu) one of the oldest city temples on the planet, if not the oldest.

**The city and its inhabitants left no written history, and modern local people know little about the city and its activities.

originally posted by: Triton1128
a reply to: Byrd

I believe the Vikings were poking around much earlier then we think.

L'Anse aux Meadows

Discovered in 1960, it is the most famous site of a Norse or Viking settlement in North America outside Greenland.

Dating to around the year 1000, L'Anse aux Meadows is the only site widely accepted as evidence of pre-Columbian trans-oceanic contact. It is notable for its possible connection with the attempted colony of Vinland established by Leif Erikson around the same period or, more broadly, with Norse exploration of the Americas.

en.wikipedia.org...

Note that Byrd said "trade routes," not "contact."

Harte

The term "Pumapunku" is from the Aymara language spoken by the natives. The Aymara weren't the occupiers of Tiahuanaco though. That's just the term they used as the name of the place.

Hardly influenced by the "white man," in other words.

C14 testing, far more reliable that any archaeoastonomical method (especially since the site was utterly ruined and hardly studied in Posnansky's day,) proves that the Pumapunku site dates no earlier than the Common Era.
From wiki:

Determining the age of the Pumapunku complex has been a focus of researchers since the discovery of the Tiwanaku site. As noted by Andean specialist, Binghamton University Anthropology professor W. H. Isbell,[2] a radiocarbon date was obtained by Vranich[3] from organic material from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill forming the Pumapunku. This layer was deposited during the first of three construction epochs and dates the initial construction of the Pumapunku to 536–600 AD (1510 ±25 B.P. C14, calibrated date). Since the radiocarbon date came from the lowermost and oldest layer of mound-fill underlying the andesite and sandstone stonework, the stonework must have been constructed sometime after 536–600 AD.

Link to a compilation of C14 dates for the site and surrounding area here

Harte

a reply to: Harte

I'm at a loss. I just read the supplied link regarding the C14 testing methods but no where does it specify the age of the Puma Punku ruins. It appears to be focused at the age of the Tiwanaku "state". Rather than the direct age of the Puma Punku ruins.

I agree that the Tiwanaku state flourished between 600 and 900 AD but this paper does nothing to deter the possibility that the southern Puma Punku ruins could have been there prior to the discovery or settlement of the Tiwanaku natives some time after.

I think the issue is, an assumption is being made that Puma Punku has to be the same age as Tiwanaku. Rather then accepting the possibility that Puma Punku could actually pre-date the later settle Tiwanaku State.


Back in 2004 - documented here : interactive.archaeology.org...

**Preliminary conclusion is that a semi-subterranean temple built around 100 B.C. was oriented to stellar alignments (see reconstruction), in particular the Southern Cross and Antares (or Korikala in Aymara), the brightest star of the Scorpio constellation.

It seems we still do not have a definitive date.

a reply to: Triton1128
From my source:

There are 62 dates from samples collected from the Tiwanaku site: fourteen from Kalasasaya, thirteen from Akapana, five from the area "between Akapana and Putuni", four from Kantatayita (Ziólkowski et al. 1994), twelve from Akapana East sector, seven from Putuni, one from Kheri Kala, and one from Puma Punku (A.Vranich, 1999).

The Pumapunku date mentioned above is the one mentioned in the Wiki article I quoted.

Note that it is well known that Tiahuanaco was occupied long before the erection of the Pumapunku temple site.

Harte

a reply to: Harte

So you're telling me. A civilization that had no written language, and had not discovered the wheel yet. Was able to hewn stone out of quarrys from over 60 miles away to an altitude of 12,000 ft. Then somehow had the mathematical knowledge to create stonework that today trumps some of our best Stonemasons even with the use of diamond tools and lasers.

Not to mention HOW they moved 100 ton blocks. OR what tools they used to create the masterful work that we find.







You explain to me how they created the above with chicken bones and stone hammers and Ill retract my opinions.

originally posted by: Triton1128
a reply to: Harte

So you're telling me. A civilization that had no written language, and had not discovered the wheel yet. Was able to hewn stone out of quarrys from over 60 miles away to an altitude of 12,000 ft. Then somehow had the mathematical knowledge to create stonework that today trumps some of our best Stonemasons even with the use of diamond tools and lasers.

Not to mention HOW they moved 100 ton blocks. OR what tools they used to create the masterful work that we find.

Yes.

originally posted by: Triton1128You explain to me how they created the above with chicken bones and stone hammers and Ill retract my opinions.

It's been explained, and you can keep your opinion for as long as you want - even in the face of evidence to the contrary. Odd that you ignore centuries of metallurgy and go for the chicken bone.

There's plenty of information on your questions right here at ATS, though I realize the search function here leaves a lot to be desired.

You know, incredulity carries no weight when making an argument.

Harte