Can't a "Progressive" also be a "Patriot"?

originally posted by: enlightenedservant

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

I don't get it. Liberals are BELIEVERS, not Rationalists or Pragmatists...almost completely the contrary.

I don't even think you guys are POLITICAL in nature anymore. You're a Personality Cult. There's almost no way around that now. It's very hard to listen to the "Left" because the arguments are circular, avoid known DATA, and are based almost completely on "feelings" and emotion.

Each post of yours in this thread is nothing but emotion and opinion - no facts or rational explanations

Lots of caps

And this:

But REALITY doesn't care about your 'solutions to make it all better"

What does that even mean? Does it sound rational to you?

Exactly why I haven't responded to him/her. How can you reason with that?

No, it's because, as evidenced by your fallacy laden commentary, you're out of your league with me in the context of political discourse.

There is a fear that I would completely OWN you on this thread if you actually were SPECIFIC about your stance..."Liberalism/Progressivism"....being in fact LIBERAL or PROGRESSIVE.

You know you're beat. So your 'out' is "I choose not to talk to him".

It's okay....it's the "Liberal" way of things...I get it.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Your posts stand? That sounds declarative.

Yes, they do. And it is, indeed, a declarative.
I retract none of them.

My 'sources' for purposes of the premise of the thread are linked in the OP (Opening Post).

Why are you yelling?

a reply to: enlightenedservant

A few weeks ago I actually rewarded this kind of thinking

Desperate times...

:-)

Edited because I had to go somewhere else


--

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Exactly why I haven't responded to him/her. How can you reason with that?

EDIT to clarify: To clarify, I was referring to "reasoning with" the post you quoted, not to your post.

With grammar, logic and rhetoric like everyone else. Or you could speak about them indirectly while still within earshot like they do on playgrounds.

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: enlightenedservant

A few weeks ago I actually rewarded this kind of thinking

Desperate times...

:-)

One of the best things about life is having the opportunity to learn from our mistakes. It makes us better people in the long run.

a reply to: breakingbs

Ok

originally posted by: Spiramirabilis
a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

I made a mistake a couple of weeks ago

:-)

It happens. My search for the thinking conservative continues...

Oh, wait - I forgot - you're a libertarian! So rational - that lot

Libertarianism, at it's Orthodoxy, and in a GENERAL sense...coupled with Constitutional principles....is more rational and nuanced, and can give clearer answers, than ANYTHING you partisan Leftist or Rightist HACKS offer the planet.

Both of you Puppets offer nothing. Especially the very CULTIST "Progressives" of modern day.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

One of the best things about life is having the opportunity to learn from our mistakes. It makes us better people in the long run.

It makes you worse, because you refuse to accept the arguments of other views, leaving you in your little echo chamber.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Which part of history class did you miss?

Thomas Jefferson himself said the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with blood or something like it. There is also something about this is our own Declaration of Independence.

"When in the course of human events ..." It proceeds from there to talk about throwing off unjust governance.

The problem is that your conception of "just" is exactly what others find unjust because in order to ensure what you call "fair" which is really equal outcome, the law cannot treat us all equally. It has to advantage some at the expense of others meaning there is actually no equality at all.

And for those of us who believe the laws ought to treat all the same, that is unjust. So it then becomes our duty to fight it.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Exactly why I haven't responded to him/her. How can you reason with that?

EDIT to clarify: To clarify, I was referring to "reasoning with" the post you quoted, not to your post.

With grammar, logic and rhetoric like everyone else. Or you could speak about them indirectly while still within earshot like they do on playgrounds.

I didn't say "how can you respond to that"; I said "how can you reason with that". There's a difference between responding to someone and reasoning with someone. I don't like to waste my time with people when I know there's literally no chance that either of us will change or grow from the discussion. I might as well go to a PEGIDA rally and try to reason with them about the virtues of Islam. It would also be a waste of time.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

It makes you worse, because you refuse to accept the arguments of other views, leaving you in your little echo chamber.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

No, it's because, as evidenced by your fallacy laden commentary, you're out of your league with me in the context of political discourse.

Mmmm. I don't think so.

There is a fear that I would completely OWN you on this thread if you actually were SPECIFIC about your stance..."Liberalism/Progressivism"....being in fact LIBERAL or PROGRESSIVE.

What is there to "fear"? You don't OWN any of us. Or what we think.

You know you're beat. So your 'out' is "I choose not to talk to him".

This is nonsensical, puerile chest-beating.

If you have something to say that you have not already expressed, try again.
To the best of your ability, keep it civil and lucid, and also exhibit some literacy. Please.

Here's a very detailed and NUANCED argument for us to chew on:

"SYRIAN REFUGEES"

The DATA:

1) Many of the refugees migrating all over Europe currently are NOT Syrian...FACT
2) Those that are invading European host nations are bringing cultural, political, economic, and criminal change OVERNIGHT without any assimilation, altering the host nations way of life NEGATIVELY.....FACT
3) Crime rates have spiked exponentially...overnight.....FACT
4) ISIS itself, STATED verbatim it would use the refugee enigma to plant Operatives throughout the world....first in Europe....FACT
5) Obama LIED about the initial numbers of "Refugees" as "10,000", when plans for 100,000 and MORE were in the works as he stated that....FACT
6) The specific SYRIAN refugees are from a region in the LEVANT where ID, history, allegiance are debatable. Many don't know who or what organization, if any, they supported...on either side....FACT
7) Our own FBI Director and other in COMMITTEE, testifying before Congress have stated they don't trust the vetting system to be consistent or accurate...FACT
8) ISIS....again....from the Levant region...intends to eventually do Americans harm....FACT
9) Hundreds of thousands of PEOPLE in general...leak through our borders without being caught...Another....FACT


So with all those facts...all that RELEVANT DATA...the usual "Progressive"..or Liberals argument is thus:

1) We are a nation of immigrants...
2) You're a racist
3) You're a bigot'
4) "White privilege"...(or some derivative)
5) You hate Islam
6) Unamerican
7) You're actually AIDING ISIS


AND ON AND ON AND ON AND ON

Even though, America has ACCEPTED more Immigrants and Refugees 10 times over the other countries COMBINED in the last 100 years.

But "Progressives" don't care about data. They care about emotions. Feelings. Not being called a 'racist'. Even though there would be almost ZERO benefit to this 'altruistic' policy of letting them in our gates. Go figure.

THAT IS 'PROGRESSIVE" IDEOLOGY....LOCK>>>STOCK>>>AND BARREL

And with that, I have to go back to work. Good night.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

America was founded with the following philosophy in mind – The amplification of Ethics, personal growth, tolerance, education, diversity, philanthropy, family, community.

Labels aside, political leanings aside, those values embody what it is to be a productive member of American society and I'm sure you would agree that any individual which practices them would be considered a true Patriot and someone who truly and genuinely loves their country and fellow man.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Which part of history class did you miss?

Thomas Jefferson himself said the tree of liberty must be watered from time to time with blood or something like it. There is also something about this is our own Declaration of Independence.

"When in the course of human events ..." It proceeds from there to talk about throwing off unjust governance.

The problem is that your conception of "just" is exactly what others find unjust because in order to ensure what you call "fair" which is really equal outcome, the law cannot treat us all equally. It has to advantage some at the expense of others meaning there is actually no equality at all.

And for those of us who believe the laws ought to treat all the same, that is unjust. So it then becomes our duty to fight it.

So it's wrong for all citizens to have equal legal rights & protections? Screw that. My parents grew up in forced racial segregation because of the Jim Crow laws. They literally couldn't vote, run for office, or even testify in court against white citizens (much less serve on a jury with or against white people). And one of my nephews is born from an interracial marriage, which was illegal here until the 1967 Supreme Court case Loving v Virginia. The fight for equal rights, protections, and duties isn't some idealistic BS. It's reality for many Americans who are still alive right now, like the LGBT community and their recent marriage victory. (EDIT: Oh sorry, that's not the "history" you were talking about, huh?)

And the whole point of a social safety net is to prevent citizens from facing economic, social, and health collapses when they go through hard times. But a strong safety net is only the first step. The goal is to improve the system so that no one needs to use the social safety net in the first place. In other words, step 1 is to stop the bleeding. And step 2 is to reduce the conditions that created the wounds in the first place.

I'm pretty sure we already had this conversation or something similar in Krazy's big thread about Socialism a few months ago. And in all honesty, I don't really feel like repeating the same things. I'm getting bored with this (not your fault though).

originally posted by: Sublimecraft
a reply to: BuzzyWigs

America was founded with the following philosophy in mind – The amplification of Ethics, personal growth, tolerance, education, diversity, philanthropy, family, community.

Labels aside, political leanings aside, those values embody what it is to be a productive member of American society and I'm sure you would agree that any individual which practices them would be considered a true Patriot and someone who truly and genuinely loves their country and fellow man.

Now that is a definition of patriotism I can get behind.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

No, did you read what I said? Equal treatment under the law meaning the same law is applied to same to you as it is to me. That's what I want.

But in order to for the equal outcome many progressives desire, laws have to be made that do not apply the same to you as to me in order to level us off so that I don't wind up with more or less than you. That means there is NO equal treatment under the law. No equality and no justice.

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

Ah. Okay - when you're next online here, would you kindly provide us with links to your "FACTS"?

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: enlightenedservant

One of the best things about life is having the opportunity to learn from our mistakes. It makes us better people in the long run.

It makes you worse, because you refuse to accept the arguments of other views, leaving you in your little echo chamber.

What? That doesn't even make sense. I can read or hear someone else's argument without accepting what they have to say or without caring enough to reply to them. As an example, you've read plenty of my posts about Islam. And you reject them, too. Does that mean you're also "stuck in that little echo chamber" since you don't "accept the arguments of other views"?

a reply to: Abysha

And there are many different ways for a person to practice those values.