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Can't a "Progressive" also be a "Patriot"?

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posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:20 PM
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originally posted by: OpenMindedRealist
a reply to: enlightenedservant
Your enlightenment seems to be in a rut. I will get you going again:

Patriotism is not a synonym for the word charity.


LOL What does that have to do with what I posted?




posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:25 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Abysha




When an American says they are a "patriot", rarely does a civil rights activist come to mind for most other Americans.


And you know what goes on in the minds of "most other Americans". It's quite telling.


Oh my word, you do this with, like, every thread you participate in. If I said "red apples", you would reply with "and you know the color of every apple how?"

Look, you know what I am saying just like you know what most people are saying yet pretend to be obtuse. There are entire areas of study based on this and sociology books dedicated to this strange branding of "patriotism". For you to question it means I can question the simple things such as "well how do you know that every person doesn't like to eat poop, are you a mind reader or something?"

No, I can't read minds. But I can look at conservative websites and google the word "patriots" to see what images are in the conservative blogs, I can watch Tea Party rallies and I can talk to people who use the word as if it only applied to people just like them.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:26 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: OpenMindedRealist




Your enlightenment seems to be in a rut. I will get you going again:

Patriotism is not a synonym for the word charity.


Not even charity, because that would actually mean giving personal wealth to the less fortunate, but governmentally forced charity, or in other words, theft of wealth and the redistribution of it according to bureaucratic choices. It's actually the death of charity.

Yet that same tax money is still going to go towards subsidies for oil companies, defense contracts, and a lot of other crap that doesn't help the average Americans. Don't forget, those are our tax dollars too. So we should have just as much of a say in how they're spent.

But in your minds, an American wanting our tax dollars to help alleviate the suffering of other Americans isn't "patriotic". But armed d-bags who're preparing for a war with our country are "patriotic". And an American who wants our government to function better and treat all of its citizens fairly isn't "patriotic" to you; but Americans who constantly threaten to quit the country they claim they love is "patriotic".

It's funny because it seems like I care more about other Americans than you do.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:28 PM
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a reply to: Abysha

Given that the country was built on the backs of the people you are currently disparaging, it throws your "I'm a Patriot" argument out the window. That was my only point.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:29 PM
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a reply to: crazyewok


Honestly Im pretty conservative and don’t subscribe to many progressive ideas. Do I think those people wrong? Yes. Do I think them naive? yes.

But they have a RIGHT in a FREE society to there political views and no one except for a party drone is going to have the same political views on everything.

Hmmm..

I generally agree with everything you post - I consider you a fellow decent human being.....

so, would you please explain how "progressives" are (in your estimation) 'wrong'?
Same for 'naive'......



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:32 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

Ah, but you are making this an either/or argument. Most of us want to help our fellow man, but we disagree that government welfare programs are the best, most efficient way to do it. We think it's a waste of resources because, among other things, we are supporting a large, wasteful bureaucracy with every single one.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:34 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant




But in your minds, an American wanting our tax dollars to help alleviate the suffering of other Americans isn't "patriotic". But armed d-bags who're preparing for a war with our country are "patriotic". And an American who wants our government to function better and treat all of its citizens fairly isn't "patriotic" to you; but Americans who constantly threaten to quit the country they claim they love is "patriotic".


I never said that, nor did I imply it.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:34 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Abysha

Given that the country was built on the backs of the people you are currently disparaging, it throws your "I'm a Patriot" argument out the window. That was my only point.


Who am I disparaging?! Show me where I did that? I said why "patriotism" carries the connotations with it that it does. If you find the current imagery of what the word means to be "disparaging", they are doing that to themselves as I made ZERO value judgement on it other than suggest how I would do it instead.

Again, you are referencing things that either do not exist or that you clearly understand but pretend not to.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:35 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Progressives now are all about forcing others to conform to their wants.
Example after example is present within the US political landscape.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:36 PM
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a reply to: BuzzyWigs

When push comes to shove I would think they would be patriotic.

I think we should stop defining ourselves.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:36 PM
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originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: crazyewok


Honestly Im pretty conservative and don’t subscribe to many progressive ideas. Do I think those people wrong? Yes. Do I think them naive? yes.

But they have a RIGHT in a FREE society to there political views and no one except for a party drone is going to have the same political views on everything.

Hmmm..

I generally agree with everything you post - I consider you a fellow decent human being.....

so, would you please explain how "progressives" are (in your estimation) 'wrong'?
Same for 'naive'......




Maybe it's peace n love, n smokin' funny stuff...



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:37 PM
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a reply to: Abysha




Who am I disparaging?! Show me where I did that? I said why "patriotism" carries the connotations with it that it does. If you find the current imagery of what the word means to be "disparaging", they are doing that to themselves as I made ZERO value judgement on it other than suggest how I would do it instead.

Again, you are referencing things that either do not exist or that you clearly understand but pretend not to.


Fair enough. I apologize.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:37 PM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Ah, but you are making this an either/or argument. Most of us want to help our fellow man, but we disagree that government welfare programs are the best, most efficient way to do it. We think it's a waste of resources because, among other things, we are supporting a large, wasteful bureaucracy with every single one.



My first post in this thread states that I'm trying to improve the laws and institutions we already have here. That's been the reference point for my other posts (and apparently, the reference point for the other posts that are responding to mine).

Of course people can help others in their free time. I don't need a government agency to help me teach my nephew how to do something. But it's also common sense to me to have our government agencies and institutions work to help the public as much as possible. Otherwise, what's the point in a government in the first place? They already spend our tax dollars and will continue to rack up public debt either way, as both Republicans and Democrats have shown. So at least they can reallocate those funds to help the Americans who actually need the help, as opposed to allocating it to the MIC and Wall St.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:39 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant

The point of government is in the COTUS. General welfare does not mean providing for all your needs on a federal level.

If we were to have such programs, they should have been implemented at a state level on a state by state basis. That is what federalism is.

The actual federal government was never intended to be what it has become.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:41 PM
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The funny thing is, EVERYONE can consider themselves a patriot.

Because everyone, from every ideology thinks that their belief system is the best and is only pushing it forward for everyone's benefit.

So today, everyone gets a patriot trophy.




posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:41 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: Abysha




Who am I disparaging?! Show me where I did that? I said why "patriotism" carries the connotations with it that it does. If you find the current imagery of what the word means to be "disparaging", they are doing that to themselves as I made ZERO value judgement on it other than suggest how I would do it instead.

Again, you are referencing things that either do not exist or that you clearly understand but pretend not to.


Fair enough. I apologize.


Wow. Thank you. I really mean that. If you fall into that "patriot" category, I want you to understand that I hold that iconic image of it in no less regard than I hold my own desired image of it; I would just like to see it be more inclusive to the rest of America (women, minorities, non-weapons, science, secularism, etc).




posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

But when you consider the well-being of everyone, it is well-being in your opinion.


In my professional opinion, yes.

When corporations like Walmart and McDonalds are failing to provide a living wage to their employees, and MY TAX DOLLARS are going toward the difference - I object.



edit on 1/5/2016 by BuzzyWigs because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:41 PM
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originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: enlightenedservant




But in your minds, an American wanting our tax dollars to help alleviate the suffering of other Americans isn't "patriotic". But armed d-bags who're preparing for a war with our country are "patriotic". And an American who wants our government to function better and treat all of its citizens fairly isn't "patriotic" to you; but Americans who constantly threaten to quit the country they claim they love is "patriotic".


I never said that, nor did I imply it.


"You" can be both singular and plural. I was referring to the same people in my first post, aka the "patriots" who want to go to war with the government, want to secede, etc.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:41 PM
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a reply to: enlightenedservant




My first post in this thread states that I'm trying to improve the laws and institutions we already have here. That's been the reference point for my other posts (and apparently, the reference point for the other posts that are responding to mine).


To be fair, that's conservatism.



posted on Jan, 5 2016 @ 04:44 PM
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a reply to: LesMisanthrope




here is what enlightenedservant said:

trying to improve the laws and institutions we already have here


Trying to improve the laws and institutions that already exist is not "conservatism."

"IMPROVE" being the word you may have missed.




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