Can't a "Progressive" also be a "Patriot"?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

Ford practiced what was called "welfare capitalism", where the social welfare of the worker was attended to by the employer. My father worked all his life under that system, in a non-unionized company, that nonetheless offered the same benefits as unionized work. Retirement and health benefits, and every year a profit sharing check, besides the company picnics, parties, and holiday turkeys. Not much of that around these days.

Consumerism is not necessarily a bad thing. The American quantity of life has been envied and desired around the world, and its duplication sought after. (Although, I must add that goods alone, without a system to transport them, does not a robust economy make.) The key word is if we "wallow" in it, by definition "indulge in an unrestrained way".

The level of debt Americans have had to go into to keep up the American quantity of life, in an economy that tips the favor of such an economy toward those at the top, and the change from being viewed as a citizen to being viewed as a consumer, from active participation in citizenship to feeding hungry ghosts, is this wallowing.

The wallowing in consumerism lead to materialism; I have said for years that we have had a great quantity of life, but our quality of life has steadily declined. So many churches, but a spiritual drought. Americans are now tired, frustrated, feeling powerless and ignored, split apart, left to drift. We have lost our soul.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Oh, Jesus, Spira! Were we that depressed back then! ....yeah, guess there were some depressing, angry times. But, there were good, great, times, too, to make us feel alive ...."He not busy being born is busy dying"

Say, Spira, now I'm thinking of a famous line from Poltergeist 2.....hmmmmmm

Well, glad I could help out your day. Transformation ain't just for mathematics.

a reply to: desert

They are back :-)

And it looks like they've been putting some time in at the gym

Onward ever onward...

Sometimes I wonder if there is a secret agreement amongst leftist ATS members, to derail 'losing' threads with inane, off-topic replies.

You people know there is a private message button, right?

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

Sometimes I wonder if there is a secret agreement amongst leftist ATS members, to derail 'losing' threads with off-topic replies.

Sometimes the whinier members of ATS feel the need to show up and make their own off topic posts because they don't know how to enter the conversation. Pretty transparent

If you can prove a single post in here is off topic - have at it

Some of we left leaning folks? We like to discuss reality, progress - our future - with music, poetry...and a little commiseration. This thread is about whether or not Progressives can be patriots. Well - that is a long, interesting and emotional topic

You people know there is a private message button, right?

You know you're free to bugger off if you don't have anything intelligent to contribute - right?

a reply to: BatheInTheFountain

You know, I do feel there is the possibility that the left has been taken in a certain direction in order to accomplish wholly unrelated goals.

There are options that can accomplish things like better social parity, while encouraging independence and self-sufficiency.

Perhaps the greatest misnomor is that any political affiliation is actually working towards such independence. I'd go so far as to say most are fighting against it.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis
The intelligent comments in this thread have been largely ignored, and your last few replies have drifting further OT.

You may not realize the pattern, but I see this happen a lot here. Maybe you guys really can't help wandering OT and rambling about glory days. Someone has to try and keep things on track.

a reply to: OpenMindedRealist

The intelligent comments in this thread have been largely ignored, and your last few replies have drifting further OT.

Well - the eye of the beholder and all that...why don't you contribute then? Respond to those posts that interest you. Or do you presume to dictate which way this conversation should go?

I see a pattern with the right too - but you know what? I accept it for what it is. Camaraderie and a shared world view. If you want to shut us up - try complaining to a mod. It's a part of this thread - and a direct response to the OP

If you were really paying attention you'd understand that what we're saying is the past is paying us a visit. Those were not good times - and our patriotism seems to be up for debate

Thoughts? Or are you here to derail the thread?

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

If you were really paying attention you'd understand that what we're saying is the past is paying us a visit. Those were not good times - and our patriotism seems to be up for debate

Hi. Just checking in.

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General Reply:

Yes, it seems that nowadays people have preconceived notions about 'groups' that may or may not have anything at all to do with reality.

Patriot? Yes, inasmuch as I believe in the COTUS (and the UNHCR)......people should not be struggling in this nation.


Do I feel the need to go bomb other people? No.
I think WAR should end, and the US should mind its own bam dizness until its own ducks are in a row.
Would it be 'progressive' to stop wars?

Or, shall we just keep sending adolescents to brain-wiping-reeducation camps (boot) and send them over to ..................

jesus. This planet is pitiful.

a reply to: desert

I have a tough time believing that the economy tips the favor towards those at the top, given that an economy is without volition, and no one is forcing anyone else to take money out of their wallet and put it anywhere. Some are just more scrupulous and more ambitious than others.

But I do agree there is moral bankruptcy. Progressives (as I understand them) don't take pride in their countries and cultures, demonizing them outright as inherently colonialist, imperialist, and racist, despite modern historians stating otherwise. The west is the most accommodating to other cultures, the first in the world to abolish slavery, the first to deny the validity of racism, the poorest citizens are rich compared to the other poor, higher standards of living, the first and only to spread democracy, the first to shed light on environmental issues, the first to advance secular societies, the first to advance in women's rights, the first to advance free speech, the first and only to stop the scourge of communism, and so on. Because of this denial of our culture, we have post-modernism and moral relativism, the loss of such values as truth and morality.

Western culture is superior.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I have a tough time believing that the economy tips the favor towards those at the top, given that an economy is without volition, and no one is forcing anyone else to take money out of their wallet and put it anywhere. Some are just more scrupulous and more ambitious than others.

But I do agree there is moral bankruptcy.

This really troubles me, LesMis - what is hard about believing that it favors those at the top?
Who do you think is orchestrating all of this (if anyone)?

Progressives (as I understand them) don't take pride in their countries and cultures

of course we do!

demonizing them outright as inherently colonialist, imperialist, and racist, despite modern historians stating otherwise.

...what?




Are you okay?

Are you okay?

My back is a little sore from chopping a truck full of wood the other day, but other than that I'm fine, thanks for asking.

This really troubles me, LesMis - what is hard about believing that it favors those at the top?
Who do you think is orchestrating all of this (if anyone)?

I did state my reasons. Were they unreadable?

Who do you think is orchestrating all of this (if anyone)?

Economies arise spontaneously out of the interactions of its citizens.

of course we do!

What do you take pride in in regards to your country and culture?

...what?

Was what I wrote unreadable?

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

What do you take pride in in regards to your country and culture?

Ohhh!!! Okay, you're accusing me of not taking pride in my country or culture.

Now I understand what you wrote.

Yes - I do take pride in my country as it grows up (and it is growing up), and my culture as far as the secular, tolerant bent is going....
but I DO NOT agree with continued aggression and policing of other countries.

We need to fix our own country. Stop subsidizing wars and other countries - bring American corporations that have off-shored to justice ---------

Was what I wrote unreadable?

No, sir.

You are reminding me of my husband now - he resorts to "It was a yes or no question" and "Hmm" and obtuse answers that indicate he is unwilling to follow the course of the conversation as it has developed.

Sorry your back is sore.
Next time I'll know -

Basic definition ....."The Latin word pater, meaning “father,” and the Greek word patēr give us the root pater or patr. A patriot is a person who loves his or her fatherland or country."

Of course, any Progressive who loves their country is a Patriot. Period.

When Spiro Agnew uttered these words decades ago, "nattering nabobs of negativity", he set in motion a trend...

had enormous impact that has lasted until this day. They helped foster among conservatives and the folks that Nixon called "the silent majority" a growing mistrust of the mainstream media, a mistrust that grew over two generations into a form of hatred. It also started a dangerous spiral of events -- journalists started bending backwards to kowtow to their conservative critics, beginning in the time of Reagan, an ill-advised shift that did not win back a single reader or viewer on the right. Instead, it caused a lot of folks on the left and even the center to wonder why the national media had stopped doing its job, stopped questioning authority.

Today, the vast majority of Americans of all political stripes -- conservative, liberal, centrist -- don't believe the "nattering nabobs of negativism, a.k.a. the mainstream media, in record numbers. In the long run, a New Media is emerging that may ultimately prove to be better than what it is replacing, but in the meantime the cost to America in the journalism that was lost during the run-up to the Iraq war and Wall Street's hijacking of the U.S. economy is incalculable.

Now that's a mission accomplished --and an amazing tribute to the power of a few words some four decades ago to start convincing people to distrust the words they read and hear today.

source

The above is a specific incident, but the kowtowing is a major trend I saw happening. Progressives and liberals allowed the word "patriot" to be hijacked and never reclaimed it, which created a vacuum filled by increasingly angrier and louder voices on the right, until it has become the purview of reactionary extremists. And woe to all those to the left of them!

Beware the bloviating bastions of blather!

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Ohhh!!! Okay, you're accusing me of not taking pride in my country or culture.

Now I understand what you wrote.

It was a question, not an accusation. I haven't assumed anything about you at all. We use question marks behind questions, for future reference.

Yes - I do take pride in my country as it grows up (and it is growing up), and my culture as far as the secular, tolerant bent is going....
but I DO NOT agree with continued aggression and policing of other countries.

We need to fix our own country. Stop subsidizing wars and other countries - bring American corporations that have off-shored to justice ---------

I asked what you took pride in in regards to your country and culture, not what you think we need to change, not what you disagree with, not what we need to fix or stop. I'm asking about patriotism, not progressivism.

You are reminding me of my husband now - he resorts to "It was a yes or no question" and "Hmm" and obtuse answers that indicate he is unwilling to follow the course of the conversation as it has developed.

I thought I was being forthcoming in my statements. First there must be something wrong with me, now I am obtuse. I suppose the rules of decent conversation have changed since the last time I checked.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

I'm asking about patriotism, not progressivism.

And I'm asking about both.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

And I'm asking about both.

You asked "Can't (sic) a progressive be a patriot?" Your opinion is yes. So let's see if it is true.

What sorts of things regarding your culture and country do you take pride in?

never mind.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

When people want to be able to say you are not a patriot - they think they do it from a position of authority

It's defensive - not offensive

Never forget that

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Hey Buzzy I missed your answer. Or did I ask the wrong question?