Can't a "Progressive" also be a "Patriot"?

An excellent thread topic.

However, labels can be so confining and so misleading. They are somewhat useful, but too often counterproductive.

Mark Twain said that patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and supporting your government only when it deserves it. That is especially valid today.

Yes, progressives are patriots, but a true analysis must be done on a case by case basis.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I'm not sure people in politics really want to compromise, or find a 'middle ground' anymore.

I wonder about that. I think there are people who obviously want their ideals to be upheld and moved forward, but I know there are moderates on both sides that understand that a functioning government depends on people with opposing views working with each other to try and do what's best for the country and everyone in it

I know - how lame am I? :-)

If different factions of different sides have managed to bully their own parties into submission - all it would take is to remove the bullies

I don't know how long that would take, but I see signs everywhere (if only in opinion pieces and polls out and about on the internet) that a lot of people are looking for a way out and a chance to move away from this situation we're in and towards the middle

Maybe we have Donny to thank for that :-)

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

I think there are people who obviously want their ideals to be upheld and moved forward, but I know there are moderates on both sides that understand that a functioning government depends on people with opposing views working with each other to try and do what's best for the country and everyone in it

I agree with that. I wouldn't even call them "moderates"; I'd call them "mature people". Because anyone who's ever owned a business or been in management knows that you have to work with others in order to get most large projects finished. That's the whole point in co-ops, alliances, teams, agencies, departments, and committees.

But the difference here is between "governing" and "public posturing". Governing requires cooperation between powerful figures. But public posturing is used to manipulate constituencies, increase loyalty for your faction, and to appease your target audience. Just think of "professional wrestling", where the wrestlers talk trash about each other and "fight" in public, but are actually traveling around the country together, making money together, and are usually friends/acquaintances in real life. They even have to carefully coordinate their moves to avoid injuring each other. Politics is the same way.

Public posturing is also used to "divide and rule" the public: as in, it's easier for 1,000 people to rule over 1,000,000 people if those 1,000,000 people are divided into bite sized groups that are constantly fighting each other for a laundry list of reasons. That's literally the point in "wedge issues".

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

I don't think patriots exist. It's just a made up word to boost the ego of domestic residents or insult others with by insinuating they aren't one. However, most people are ingrained with the desire to defend their country because human beings are tribalistic in nature and a country is nothing more than a giant tribe. Patriotism is just saying, "I'm proud to be tribalistic". Awesome, you and the rest of the world.

originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: enlightenedservant

My friend, you just keep on keepin' on.

Don't let folds weigh you down with their attempts, notice I said attempts, to ridicule that which they don't understand.

Faith.

Thanks. And don't worry, I'm waaaaay too stubborn to stop being me because of other people. As an example, I got even more involved in community organizing after the recent calls for banning Muslims & the such. Sometimes the best way to deal with negativity is to keep pushing forward even faster.

It's interesting to note that most non-patriots, and the people who find disparaging their country somewhat lucrative in money or street-cred, continue to live and make a living in the very same country. It's easy enough to pick up and move, even if they are lazy, but they don't. They are either gluttons for punishment, or they do in fact love their country, but it is too uncool to admit it.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: openminded2011

The founders knew this, and did the best they could to incorporate checks and balances into the system. We need to get that working again.

Yes, they did. It would be wonderful if it really worked, but it seems it has been a huge cause of conflict since, well, 1776. I'm not sure people in politics really want to compromise, or find a 'middle ground' anymore.

We also have to remember that when the country was first established, only rich, white, educated men could vote. The rest of the populace were disallowed (and for the most part not equipped). Things are so much different now that it's not hardly comparable at all.

Thank you very much for your post.

Agreed, it was set up pretty much for the rich landowning class, at the expense of everyone else. And not much has changed. But they still can.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
It's interesting to note that most non-patriots, and the people who find disparaging their country somewhat lucrative in money or street-cred, continue to live and make a living in the very same country. It's easy enough to pick up and move, even if they are lazy, but they don't. They are either gluttons for punishment, or they do in fact love their country, but it is too uncool to admit it.

Or it's an easy way to make money, so they stay to milk their cash cow. Surely you've heard of the proverbial rats that abandon the ship only when it's finally about to sink. Like parasites that feed on their host until it dies, then they jump to another host and repeat the cycle. Same thing.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Agreed. There is some irony at work there.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Spira, I cannot let Ted Nugent be the poster boy for patriotism. Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie, Marian Anderson.... there's a history of American patriots.

Yeah, my family get-togethers include a John Birch Society/Tea Party family who still believe that the peace symbol is a satanic upside down, broken cross of Christ. There's no arguing with true believers; no matter how hard you try to convince a flat-earther that the world is round, they will stick to that belief. Actually, another family member informed me that the husband is starting to question some of his beliefs. At least it doesn't sound like he'll be like a local John Bircher who has been writing letters to the editor for 40 years complaining of the Communist takeover of America.

The two parties used to be like your and my family gatherings, a mix of opinions but with real convergences and compromises on certain points. The dynamics of all that has been broken, with refuge and great political power given to extremists who refuse to compromise. Letting extremism lay claim to patriotism is not good for a country. We are all patriots.

Now, I've got to get back to packing away the last of my holiday decor, while I sing some Guthrie and Seeger. Marion Anderson I can only listen to. I can get away with singing a folk song, but my cat slinks away when I try opera.

originally posted by: LesMisanthrope
a reply to: enlightenedservant

Agreed. There is some irony at work there.

Remember, a lot of them have properties in other countries too, so it's not like they have to actually get up and leave.

The global powerbrokers "fatten" one set of countries while "harvesting" others. It's like a game of musical chairs. Some specialize in profiting when a country "booms"; some specialize in profiting from the collapse; and others specialize in buying the bankrupted assets at a discount and rebuilding the country. The cycles repeat and every single country in the "global economy" is in a different stage of this cycle. It's literally by design.

But citizens are brainwashed to be short sighted so they never look at it as a whole. We're brainwashed to think politicians and powerbrokers are dumb, yet they're actually masters of maintaining power and making money for themselves and their allies. But we're too busy fighting each other and panicking over the latest bogeymen to figure it out.

a reply to: desert

Ted Nugent... I once dated a guy that was a huge fan. But, that's a story for another time :-)

The family political thing is often hilarious - then exasperating - then hilarious again when looking back

Tea party in my family too - along with the Uber liberals. My friends are all over the place - or were. Through the years some of us don't talk as much as we used to, but we used to have some decent arguments. Those were good times though. I agree with you, it's not like today. Some of my tea party family members were hit very hard a couple years after the crash (and after their affiliation) in 2008, and experienced a side of life that they had only been able to contemplate through the filter of right winged memes. They aren't exactly progressives - but there has been a definite shift...life is like that

The word patriot did get hijacked Desert - just like you were discussing with enlightenedservant earlier in the thread. It became a fighting word - a loyalty test - a code word for something else

Think I'll follow your lead today - listen to some patriotic music and try to remember that our love for our country can't be summed up by a single word

Will probably toss in some Dylan too :-)

a reply to: enlightenedservant

Remember, a lot of them have properties in other countries too, so it's not like they have to actually get up and leave.

The global powerbrokers "fatten" one set of countries while "harvesting" others. It's like a game of musical chairs. Some specialize in profiting when a country "booms"; some specialize in profiting from the collapse; and others specialize in buying the bankrupted assets at a discount and rebuilding the country. The cycles repeat and every single country in the "global economy" is in a different stage of this cycle. It's literally by design.

But citizens are brainwashed to be short sighted so they never look at it as a whole. We're brainwashed to think politicians and powerbrokers are dumb, yet they're actually masters of maintaining power and making money for themselves and their allies. But we're too busy fighting each other and panicking over the latest bogeymen to figure it out.

I don't agree with any of this at all, friend. Sure individuals are quite good at capitilizing on certain events and situations for the sake of profit, but to insinuate the events and situations themselves are the result of design is a wild stretch of the imagination. A slight glance at the history of the world shows that no one has the sort of foresight and genius to design any economy, let alone a global one, and anyone who has attempted otherwise has led to utter failure.

Though prone to credulity, group-think and susceptable to sophistry, the majority of citizens are not brainwashed. Most just want to live out their lives.

And those of us who argue over politics, ideas and labels are not fighting in any real sense. There is no violence occuring here or in debates like these; and those who pretend to be the moral superiors because they sit by the sidelines enjoying the show will be on the wrong side of history for refusing to take part. Silence too is a choice; and more often than not, the wrong one.

a reply to: enlightenedservant

That's the whole point in co-ops, alliances, teams, agencies, departments, and committees.

I've always believed that there is an almost natural (as in nature) pull/push attempt by society to achieve balance. The numbers are always going to be going up and down in different categories, but that dance is never ending. We need conservatives and we need liberals or none of it will work. Checks - and balances

Like you've just said - mature people can understand what they don't agree with, and also respect it. Compromise used to be something we could do - even if it was sometimes grudgingly

When certain elements can't or won't compromise, and instead hold everyone hostage - including their own party - threatening to shut down the government...we're looking at something different. That's for real politics - direct to us from Washington D.C.

It's a kind of political red tide

It's worrisome :-)

Progressive policies are indeed patriotic.

The successful corrals of crime & poverty in big cities is proof.

Nicely condensed and compartmentalized.

a reply to: xuenchen

*aherm*
"Excuse me, sir, but - this party's over."

originally posted by: xuenchen
Progressive policies are indeed patriotic.

The successful corrals of crime & poverty in big cities is proof.

Nicely condensed and compartmentalized.

Almost forgot...

The big city progressive public education system is patriotic too.

a reply to: LesMisanthrope

LOL You seriously don't know about the economic concept of "creative destruction"? Or how hedge funds, investment bankers, foreign exchange firms, and vulture capitalists work? There are plenty of different business practices that support what I said. And if I was a heartless person, I'd be doing this stuff instead of warning people about it.

1. Buy recently devalued assets when the economy is down.

2. Invest money to help the economy grow, while getting subsidized & reimbursed for your investments. This can also come through increased foreign investment, which is really just "favorable trade deals with allied businesses in other markets".

3. Sell the assets from #1 at a steep markup before the new economic bubble bursts. Reinvest this capital into other economies that are in phase #1 or #2.

4. Short sell the economy while using political, social, and economic channels to pop the bubble. This could be through decreased spending, economic sanctions, or whatever works for that jurisdiction. (This is also where you'd want to have the scariest bogeymen to distract the population from the new business deals & to be the scapegoat for the latest economic crisis.)

5. Profit off of the impending crash and get public funds to cover any unforeseen losses you may have from the market correction. Or more likely, get public funds to cover any "losses" your accountants can conjure up during the economic crisis.

6. Once the economy has bottomed out, start looking for assets that have been steeply devalued because of the decreased economic activity.

7. Go back to #1.

There are entire industries that focus on separate parts of what I just described. And powerful politicians, lobbying firms, corporate media, law firms, and bureaucrats all have a role in this "game" (and nearly all of them can be "bought" through contracts, bribes, investment opportunities, or the such). The things I listed above are literally just a few of the "international economic opportunities" you look for if you're trying to be in investment banking. I know this because that was the path I was originally trying to take before I got a swift kick in the rear by my religion. I wasn't always a socialist lol. But you're free to believe or reject whatever you choose.

a reply to: Spiramirabilis

Hey, Spira, I tried Dylan, too. Thanks!.... at least he's someone who sings worse than I do.

I see America as having turned into a bifurcated country. As a reaction to the times, in 1980 we took on a defacto state religion where all things were seen as black and white, good or evil, saved or unsaved, born again or damned to Hell, and the separation of citizens began in earnest. Questioning, asking why, was heretical. The Great Sorting Hat went on to make sure that citizens "knew their place" once again, literally, too; as the 1960s-70s upset what had been accepted as a natural exclusiveness.

Set on a foundation of the above, the 1990s brought about political bifurcation in earnest, with Newt Gingrich declaring fellow citizens enemies, further purging his party, and creatively using language to control the divide.

The only way for some to deal with the country's divisiveness, created decades ago as a reaction to moral relevancy, was to declare that, in fact, all things ARE the same, after all! What I see as a moral irrelevancy. "Both sides do it", "both are the same", a scratch is the same as a deep cut. We end up in a strange universe, where one bloviates, both dissing and "cherishing", speaking out of both sides of ones mouth at once. Such strangeness.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that we have been conditioned to think of the world as only holding opposites, that people can only hold certain views and not others, that choices are limited to only two, when, really, you and I remember before this bifurcation set in. It took decades to get this way, so getting out will take some time, too.

But here is a start...

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
Sometimes the best way to deal with negativity is to keep pushing forward even faster.

And if we don't, here is what will keep us all imprisoned in that bifurcated world...

originally posted by: enlightenedservant
But we're too busy fighting each other and panicking over the latest bogeymen to figure it out.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs


On mans patriot is another mans fifth column. And your never going to convince me that progressives that see themselves as patriots think much of the other kind.