Ben Carson reveals his new tax plan (flat tax)

a reply to: Flatfish

What tax loop holes are only available to the uber wealthy? Please be specific...

One thing I find alarming is when people take the advice of everybody about going to college and getting a good education and a high paying job.....

Then when somebody does that, they have to hear all the ridicule coming from mostly the same people that insisted they do what they did.

Hypocrites bite their own tail sometimes.

a reply to: Sremmos80

So ignore all the possible bad things based on one possible good thing that you don't even believe will be implemented?

All his possible bad things are still insignificant when compared to the rest of the cookie cutter GOP scumbags with exception to Rand Paul who also has a flat tax , which is likely where Carson got his plan from.

Hence if I actually believed that voting made a difference, I would consider voting for Carson based on the flat tax.

The tax system is a huge issue in this country from the upper middleclass and below. Taxes puts all the burden on the upper middleclass and below while the rich keep getting richer and escape paying the burden.

I don't hate the flat tax idea, just think that just find the fairness logic coming from some people that support it funny.

Nothing is fair in life and you can't expect for fairness in life or you will be disappointed. However if I pay 15 percent on my income why shouldn't a billionaire? Its not solely a fairness argument, but its also a common sense argument.

I shouldn't have to hire an attorney to understand the tax codes. Its bad enough that the people in charge of the taxes and the IRS have incorrectly filed taxes themselves.

The flat tax makes it simple and equal for everyone including the extremely wealthy and the politicians, hence why the DNC or the GOP will never endorse a candidate that is for the FairTax.

The flat tax is insane. It will bankrupt poor and middle class people. For example, I make around 40k and pay all the bills for myself, my kids and their mom. Last year I paid about $5,500 in federal taxes over the year and got about half of that back, leaving me paying approximately $2500 in taxes. I use most of my refund catch up on bills from our evil, overpriced capitalist system that almost completely benefits the wealthy who will have their taxes massively cut by this tax plan.

If you implement the flat tax I will have to pay about $6,000 in taxes and get none of it back, which means I will be paying $3500 more than I do now and not be able to pay off any bills like medical either. You will be double screwing working people which will cripple them and cause massive debt, bankruptcy, suicide and probably drastically cut consumer spending also which will cause a depression.

The flat tax is insanity and ruthless greed and is about the worst thing you could possibly do to the American people. Luckily for Ben there are a ton of stupid people who will support it as evidenced by this post. If Americans could do even basic math (and logic) they would see how moronic this is.

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: Edumakated

Exactly why should taxes be simple?

Taxes should be simple because time is money. Time spent keeping records and preparing forms could be put to more productive use. People and businesses in the lower income brackets are less able to outsource this task, therefore the burden of time spent amounts to an additional regressive tax or penalty.

Administering and enforcing the Federal tax code ties up the full time labor of tens of thousands of people... we have other problems these people could be working to solve. Other needs these people could fill.

The never-ending clarifications enacted into law each year add uncertainty to the budget process for households and businesses.

My favorite reason... complexity disguises all manner of corruption.

My personal preference would be to implement the FairTax (tax on consumption), but I could live with the Flat tax as proposed by Dr. Carson or Senator Paul.

a reply to: CB328

Really? I will have to watch the video again...

The way I heard it laid out by Dr. Carson in the vid, only income in the household over and above the federal poverty level is subject to the flat tax.

Let's assume a family of 4 just for example

Income of 40,000 - federal definition of poverty level for household of 4 is approx. 25,000

15,000 subject to tax at 14.9% would be between 2200 and 2300...

Anyone else hear it that way?

I hope that's the case, I read about his plan before and didn't see that, maybe he's revised it.

a reply to: CB328

Of course, there is the campaign promise, then there's what the candidate could actually achieve as POTUS... could be two entirely different things, I must say!

a reply to: CB328

The flat tax is insane.

Since the flat tax is a fantasy that will never get passed lets continue with the fantasy.

Something that is missed by many that deals with making everyone pay the equal amount is:

Imagine if billionaires that have lobbying influences and the politicians in their hands had to pay the same 15% tax on their income as everyone including the common folks and politicians themselves. They would not be to happy to pay 15% on their hundreds of millions to billions of dollars on the income they earned.

Hence not long after a flat tax would be passed it would quickly be dropped to almost nothing. However, since services still need to be applied they would also see fit to make sure there is actual gov't accountability.

If those in power have to pay the same ,it will be in their best interest to lower what everyone pays.

Plus having all the billionaires pay same percentage should also lower the burden of the middleclass from having to pick up the slack as we currently do now ,since they typically pay far less than 15%of their income and sometimes even 0%.


Right now they don't care what percentage you are being taxed on because they are the ones creating the laws and have the resources and money to utilize those loopholes safely.

You make them pay the same as you, then all the sudden they will care how much you are paying.

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: Flatfish

What tax loop holes are only available to the uber wealthy? Please be specific...

If I were one of those CPAs doing 70 page individual returns at $500 a pop, I would probably be able to do just that.

But I'm just a dumbass retired longshoreman and I'm far from qualified to answer that question.

Just the same, that doesn't mean they don't exist, just ask Warren Buffett.

originally posted by: ReadLeader
a reply to: peskyhumans

Would be nice for us 'non-billionaires' Let’s start with “lower.” Taxes cannot be lower for everyone and still raise the same amount of money. For every dollar that your taxes are low/lower, someone else’s has got be a dollar higher.

Yup, we know the argument "cutting taxes may cause people to work harder and thus substantially increase government revenue".

This theory has dominated conservative economic thinking for three decades with scant evidence to support it. If you want to give everyone a tax cut—under the current system, under a flat tax, or under any other arrangement—all you have to do is lower the tax rate. This has nothing to do with flatness.

Good point and well made - thanks

originally posted by: peskyhumans

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: ReadLeader
Taxes cannot be lower for everyone and still raise the same amount of money. For every dollar that your taxes are low/lower, someone else’s has got be a dollar higher.

Yup, we know the argument "cutting taxes may cause people to work harder and thus substantially increase government revenue".

Not if it attracts foreign capital and investiture or compels domestic companies to invest here instead of abroad.

if he lowers the corporate tax rate to 15% I bet there will be a HUGE boom in job creation and big business in this country.

if the logic of this argument is true then why not go the whole hog and argue that business should not have to pay any tax at all?? In fact lets reduce their tax rate to minus (-) 50% so that for every dollar of profit they make, they get a bonus dollar from the tax payer. This eliminate unemployment over night. why? because there is only one single factor affecting employment levels and that is corporate tax rate. Thais right isn't it????

Nothin else has anything to do with it does it???

Righto, so corporate tax rate is reduced to zero % where and from whom will the tax come from? I Know, lets increase the tax rate of wage and salary earners to 80% and lets develop and implement a hidden tax regime such as civil forfeiture, $10,000.00 speeding fines and tax on food, clothing, housing, education and health care of 40%.

We all know that the reason why the state has to pay old age pensions is because the workers are to stupid and wasteful to know how to provide for their own old age and besides we all know they just dont care anyway so we know that we can saddle them up with big tax increases because absolutely everyone knows that wage and salary earners tax rates has got absolutely nothing to do with their ability to save for their own old age income.

The fact that a study in the UK showed that the average worker pays out about 80% of their wages in taxes and taxes by other names. But hay, we all know that has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to save for when they are unemployed so they wont need welfare and it has absolutely nothing to do with their ability to save for their old age care and pay for private health care.

A short note to anyone and everyone suggesting that supply side economics (or Reaganomics) works: No. It doesn't. The simple fact is that cutting taxes on corporations doesn't cause them to expand a create new jobs, it just boosts their profit margins. Creating a new job is a last-resort that occurs when demand is high enough such that more employees are necessary and all other options have been expended.

originally posted by: dazbog
How about a zero tax on earned income. Seemed to work relatively well until the Introduction of the FRB followed by the IRS. Prior to that, the only tax paid by individuals was on income from investments.

Yes! Thank you!!! Your comment was a ray of sunshine in this dark debate. I have said the same thing so many times, and -- like you -- been roundly ignored

No one should pay income on their labor. No one. Everyone has a natural right to provide for themselves and their family without paying someone for the privilege -- especially government! Doesn't matter if you sweep floors after hours or run a multi-national corporation.... or if you make minimum wage or a multi-billion dollar salary. The fruits of our labor is ours alone.

A flat tax should be applied to UNearned income aka capital gains, and on corporate profits -- which taxes are, of course, paid by the consumer.

At the same time, (if I were queen of everything), I would make a maximum wage ratio a mandatory part of the corporate charter: If you want the special entitlements and privileges of incorporating, then you must maintain a maximum wage ratio between the highest and lowest paid employees. I.e., the highest paid employee cannot make more than, say, 500% more than the lowest paid employee. Corporations who choose to move manufacturing and production to foreign countries will be taxed accordingly when they bring the products to the U.S. for sale -- in other words, taxes will make it more profitable to manufacture here with domestic labor.

What I find so soundly discouraging and disheartening is that people would rather argue over who should pay more...

Divide-and-conquer.

originally posted by: CB328
The flat tax is insane. It will bankrupt poor and middle class people. For example, I make around 40k and pay all the bills for myself, my kids and their mom. Last year I paid about $5,500 in federal taxes over the year and got about half of that back, leaving me paying approximately $2500 in taxes. I use most of my refund catch up on bills from our evil, overpriced capitalist system that almost completely benefits the wealthy who will have their taxes massively cut by this tax plan.

If you implement the flat tax I will have to pay about $6,000 in taxes and get none of it back, which means I will be paying $3500 more than I do now and not be able to pay off any bills like medical either. You will be double screwing working people which will cripple them and cause massive debt, bankruptcy, suicide and probably drastically cut consumer spending also which will cause a depression.

The flat tax is insanity and ruthless greed and is about the worst thing you could possibly do to the American people. Luckily for Ben there are a ton of stupid people who will support it as evidenced by this post. If Americans could do even basic math (and logic) they would see how moronic this is.

You use your refund to catch up on bills from the evil, overpriced capitalist system? WTF? The same evil capitalist system that gives you a job in the first place?

Second, only idiots get tax refunds. A tax refund means you gave Uncle Sam an interest free loan during the year. You should adjust your withholding to more accurately reflect your tax liability. In layman terms, this means you keep more of your check every pay period. Ideally, you should either have a tax liability of zero OR owe taxes at the end of the year instead of getting a refund.

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: peskyhumans

Will never happen and this is the nail on carsons coffin.

The 1% like complicated and hidden loop holes. Their is no way that a billionaire will want to pay 15% on their income.


BTW i'm for the flat tax and would ignore all of Carsons other cookyness and vote for him just for a flat tax. However the GOP and the DNC are just a front for the established .05% and would never endorse flat tax.

A flat tax means they would have to pay more in taxes and the upper middle class and below would pay less in taxes.

I actually think Ben can make good on his word.

originally posted by: Flatfish

originally posted by: Edumakated
a reply to: Flatfish

What tax loop holes are only available to the uber wealthy? Please be specific...

If I were one of those CPAs doing 70 page individual returns at $500 a pop, I would probably be able to do just that.

But I'm just a dumbass retired longshoreman and I'm far from qualified to answer that question.

Just the same, that doesn't mean they don't exist, just ask Warren Buffett.

In other words, you are just parroting claptrap about the rich having special loopholes but never actually researched it to see if it was true. There are no special loopholes for the rich when it comes to taxes.

The only reason some of the wealthy have lower overall rates is that their income may be largely from capital gains which is taxed at a lower rate than income paid as wages. For example, if you are a CEO and make $1,000,000 yr/ but have stock options and choose to exercise them, you'd pay the 39% rate on the $1,000,000 but the stock options would be hit with the 15% rate. Many executives have stock options that can be many times their salary so it brings down the overall rate they would pay.

However, this is not just for the uber wealthy. Many lower level employees get stock options too or make small investments. They too are taxed at the lower rate.

With that said, there are certain deductions that mostly wealthier people might use but it does not mean they are special loop holes. There are also deductions that lower income earners get that the wealthy don't.

For example, I went into debt about $50k to pay for my MBA. I make too much money to write off the interest on my student loans. However, people who make less than $100k can write off their interest.

Well when you make 40k a year, and have to provide housing, transportation, food...it's kind of hard to scrape enough together to invest in the volatile stock market, making any kind of capital gains benefit a moot point.

In order to make money in the market, you need to have money. $100 every two weeks into an investment account isn't going to pay very much out in the way of dividends that are taxed under capital gains.

Most people making 30-50k a year don't get 'stock options' and have a crappy 401k that they obviously shouldn't touch for obvious reasons.

Sure, if I had a 100 grand laying around and could throw it into a Vanguard or something maybe I'd make some decent dividend returns on it that I could claim under capital gains...

But then again, I'm stoopid and anyone can become a millionaire by investing $100 every two weeks, or $2400 a year.

a reply to: Edumakated

There's a whole host of other ways that the uber wealthy enjoy tax advantages over lower income individuals besides stock options and the capital gains tax rate, which in and of themselves are indeed big ones.

Especially seeing how the whole idea behind stock options is to evade taxation and the vast majority of income for the uber wealthy is earned through capital gains.

Like I said, I'm not a tax professional and I don't intend on becoming one in order to properly answer your question, but there's a reason the tax code is 75,000 pages long.

But just as an example;

I know a guy who is wealthy, bought a couple hundred acres for hunting, put about 15 American bison on the place, filed for agricultural ranch exemption and now pays a substantially lower property tax rate because of it.

Did I mention he also bought a backhoe, two large tractors and a $60,000 "ranch truck" that he uses for everything, all of which he gets to amortize on his tax return.

He also attends Bison conventions while on vacation which allows him to write of a large portion of his vacation cost.

How many low to middle income earners do you know who get to utilize those tax advantages?

My father-in-law who was wealthy and owned his own company never drove anything but a "company" truck and my mother-in-law, (Stay-at-home V.P. of the company) always had a "company" Town Car that spent 90% of it's time parked in their garage.

They never burned anything other than gas bought on the company card and all maintenance was done at company expense.

They'd purchase new vehicles every 3 to 5 yrs, or as soon as there was no tax advantage to keeping them.

How many low to middle income people do you know that are able to enjoy those tax advantages?

originally posted by: theySeeme

originally posted by: interupt42
a reply to: peskyhumans

Will never happen and this is the nail on carsons coffin.

The 1% like complicated and hidden loop holes. Their is no way that a billionaire will want to pay 15% on their income.


BTW i'm for the flat tax and would ignore all of Carsons other cookyness and vote for him just for a flat tax. However the GOP and the DNC are just a front for the established .05% and would never endorse flat tax.

A flat tax means they would have to pay more in taxes and the upper middle class and below would pay less in taxes.

I actually think Ben can make good on his word.

My point is not that he wouldnt but rather that the establishment GOP and the DNC would never support a candidate that was for the flat tax. No billionare or hundrednare that own the lobbying industry and the politicians wants to pay the same percentage as the middleclass. They will never support a flat tax when they pay little to no income tax based on percentage