"Why do non-Christians come here?" Here's why -

originally posted by: Klassified

originally posted by: Tucket
Travelling the boards, Ive noticed that various atheists seem to be disgruntled former xtians who were fed christianity by fundie parents... Now that theyve liberated themselves, they feel the need (or just for funsies) to try and talk sense (or belittle) into those silly Christians who still hold faith.

Of course, no Christians ever feel the need to try and talk sense into those silly athiests/agnostics who hold no faith. And they certainly wouldn't use the threat of eternal damnation. Not once in 2000 years.

My reply was based on the OPs premise of thread interjections on ATS.. Thats a shame if youve been threatened here..or proselytized on..

Ive seen a few weirdo preachers grace the boards in the few years ive been here; and then seen them promptly get banned..

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I never said religion is the only way they justify their wars only that they have and will continue to use religion to justify their wars as long as they find it useful.

Will they use religion every time? No, but it has been a motivating factor in many many wars throughout history, including today in the Middle East. There are huge religious undertones behind the war in the Middle East today and the media capitalizes on it every day with their rhetoric.

OK, I guess that is true to an extent. I am not sure the government used it, but the media and citizens have continually drummed the religious context. I guess if you accept the media complicit in the US with government propaganda then you could conclude that. I think it is the media using it because that is what their audience believes and wants it to be a religious war (ratings). I haven't myself seen the government or military state anything like that. They have said multiple time this is not based on religion and they are not engaging in a religious war.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: OpenEars123

Do you want to live your own life or have God live it for you?

If he solves all of our problems, the ones in our control as well the ones outside them, then at what point is your life your own to live?

The point of this existence is to see what you make of it on your own. What are your choices? How do you handle what life throws at you?

If you have God saving you from every bump, then you never will know.

I like your post, but I don't believe in God. I was merely pointing out what an @sshole he must be if he did exist, and what an @sshole you would be for believing in him, considering how many innocent children be allows to die every day.

Cool reply, but I think you'll find we're on the same page (not hymn sheet!) ;-)

originally posted by: OpenEars123

originally posted by: spirit_horse

originally posted by: OpenEars123

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: OpenEars123

The idea of earning your reward isn't about living longer here.

Some of us have what others would perceive as easier lives here, true. But until you have stepped in that person's shoes, you don't know what their life was really despite what the external perception seemed to be. Robin Williams, to most people, had everything, and yet, he took his own life. Clearly, HE didn't have what he needed or wanted on some level, and no matter how much he seemed to have going for him, it wasn't what made his life bearable to him.

So, do you know what his life was like?

Where was God for him in this life? Clearly, you could say God gave him everything that kid with cancer doesn't have, but it didn't help Robin Williams in the end.

Robin Williams was a nice guy, or 'seemed' to be from the perception that the media gave us. I liked him, and was sad to see him go.

Innocent 1,2,3 and 4 year old kids don't 'need' to be given a perception in order to be or not be worthy of 'help' Kids (literally all of them) deserve help when they are dying, literally all of them. And that's just innocent kids we're talking about, let alone the amazing adults we all lose daily to disease, famine, murder, rape, torture... Admit it, if there is a god, he is one brutal mother#####r.

Well, I would argue he gave mankind freewill. If he was to impose changes of circumstances it would interfere with freewill. It sucks I agree, but it was spelled out in the beginning. Humans made their own mess and it is those brutal humans that should be blamed for the situation.

Blame the humans for all the diseases and famine?
I don't think so, I think it's nature. But to those who believe in an omnipresent deity, you should take the blame of your creator. Why worship him/it otherwise???

Actually, you can blame humans for a good chunk of them.

Look at famine ... we produce more than enough to feed the world. There is enough that gets to starving countries to feed them even from wealthier countries, but often corrupt officials keep it from getting where it needs to go, so the famine is never relieved.

Look at Africa. It used to have its own breadbasket that was as productive as the US heartland, but then the African colonial powers handed over their reign to the locals who were corrupt officials and made a practice of seizing the land and giving it to their cronies who knew nothing about how to run the farms. Now, there is no more African breadbasket.

Governments in developed countries think we are so isolated from famine by modernity that they have stopped storing food. The reality is that all it will take is a bad harvest or three to wipe out our food supplies and land even the most developed countries into famine.

We do these things to ourselves as much, if not more, than nature does these days.

Disease is much the same.

We know how to learn the tactics of disease. How it spreads. We can fight it on that level.

Look at HIV. You have to be grade A stupid NOT to know how that spreads. And yet look at how many still get it.

The other STDs are no different. You can mock God and his prohibitions against sex out of marriage, but that simple rule is the Biblical, old school way to avoid getting things like HIV, syphilis, and gonorrhea (which is rapidly becoming multi-drug resistant, btw, meaning we would no way except avoiding multiple partners to avoid it).

And you can argue that God is nowhere, but he has given us knowledge and the potential to master over our domain. He gave us the ability to solve these problems for ourselves if we can find the answers. What on earth do you think science is? Of course, it is again our own flaw that we spend our resources working on how to kill each other.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
a reply to: enlightenedservant

I never said religion is the only way they justify their wars only that they have and will continue to use religion to justify their wars as long as they find it useful.

Will they use religion every time? No, but it has been a motivating factor in many many wars throughout history, including today in the Middle East. There are huge religious undertones behind the war in the Middle East today and the media capitalizes on it every day with their rhetoric.

I agree. Though for the record, the real issues in the Middle East right now are over trade deals, regional influence, tribal grudges, ethnic conflicts, and more. For example, Turkey & the Kurdish people are both majority Sunnis, but that isn't stopping the Turkish vs Kurdish political, ethnic & territorial fighting. But I see what you're saying.

a reply to: spirit_horse

The same people who own the media also own the government. The media is the arm of the government that spews propaganda to rile people up into supporting their wars. The corporations that run the media are the same ones who pay politicians and rig the political environment in their favor.

The media and government are not separate in my eyes, only different arms of the same body.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

Why is not a concern for myself to be honest. My faith is strong enough and I am more than ready to give an account of it. I'm happy for anyone to discuss and/or disagree

I nor anyone can enforce faith.

That said are all atheists of the same mindset. Surely being told they are a sinner and will go to hell unless they repent and seek Jesus should not be an issue if their atheistic faith is as strong as a believers???

To be honest, i don't get on here much. I have a neurological issue. However when I have both atheists and Christians and even those of other faiths have taught me to search and my faith has grown quite substantially each period of time I spend on here.

Therefore, thank you atheists and thank The Lord Jesus for you and your comments

Regards

Many years ago when I was a teenager, there was a group I hung out with who had different religions, but one was a Jehovah's witness and preaching to us. We couldn't understand how he could believe the things he believed. I was kind in the way I spoke to him, but was still trying to point things out hoping he would stop his preaching and understand that we didn't have the same belief system. Still he tried to preach and prove us wrong and say that his religion was 'the one true' religion. The beginning of the conversation was good and he stood firm in his beliefs, but as I and others threw questions at him and pointed out contradictions or whatever, his firm stance began to waver. He wasn't angry, but frustrated and admitted he didn't have the answers to our questions and never really thought about it that deeply. In the end he looked so sad, so confused, so lost. You could see he was losing his faith and I swore I would never do such a thing again.

I always wondered what happened to that kid. I didn't know him and had just met him that night, but never forgot him. What right did I or anyone else have to tear down his belief system, one that gave him comfort and joy, hope, peace and inspiration? He really did seem like a great kid.

We all come from the same source, no matter what we call it. I don't know any Christians who are in my face or bothering me in any way.

originally posted by: Metallicus

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: Metallicus

I am not involved in a religion and I certainly find aspects of Christianity silly or non-nonsensical, however, I don't feel the need to get involved in their threads and go out of my way to tell them how I feel.

Why not?
...
World Peace depends on it.

Well, if you think 'world peace' depends on people making fun of or criticizing Christianity and religion in general then we just don't agree. I find governments to be the threat to world peace, not religion.

Governments, America "In God we trust"
Britain "God save the queen"

Governments...

a reply to: spirit_horse
Was just reviewing the thread here and saw this.

But the comparison in you OP of Christians to Santa say a lot. Everyone over 10 knows that is a story. However, that is not necessarily the case with believers in God. I guess it is up to each individual. I say I could care less because I have died twice in my life and know better. However, the experience doesn't jive with any particular dogma, but the reality of a universal consciousness that I think religions try to explain.

I am completely in agreement with you on this.
I have not experienced death yet - but I am very much invested into what those of you who have done have to say about it. I agree with you that no one 'religion' has it 'right.'

One has only to look for the "lowest common denominator" to see where they all intersect>

and that is
The Golden Rule.

Regardless, I could see joining in on discussions of evangelism as atheists always claim they don't want people to hear one side and not the other. Joining in on a theological debate among believers really makes no sense.

But, it does. It really does. If just one person who is 'iffy' about buying whatever story is on offer is helped (one way or the other) to come to a rational and workable stance, then that is worth any effort.

That's the thing. There are more flavors of "religious belief" than there are skin colors.

I doubt anyone that is a believer really cares if you do or don't

So - then, no one cares if people who are not Christians participate? There's no problem whether they 'do' or 'don't' take part in Christian-based topics...right?

I wouldn't. It just seems an odd thing to do if you don't believe as it is a discussion among whatever religion about their beliefs, not whether any of them believe or not.

a reply to: Night Star

What right did I or anyone else have to tear down his belief system, one that gave him comfort and joy, hope, peace and inspiration?

Great way of putting it, I've begun to realize this same exact thing here recently. I have no right to try and impose my views on others or try to tear their own views down. If they're a good person, who cares what they believe? If it is a way for them to make sense of the world, who am I to discourage that even if I disagree?

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: OpenEars123

originally posted by: spirit_horse

originally posted by: OpenEars123

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: OpenEars123

The idea of earning your reward isn't about living longer here.

Some of us have what others would perceive as easier lives here, true. But until you have stepped in that person's shoes, you don't know what their life was really despite what the external perception seemed to be. Robin Williams, to most people, had everything, and yet, he took his own life. Clearly, HE didn't have what he needed or wanted on some level, and no matter how much he seemed to have going for him, it wasn't what made his life bearable to him.

So, do you know what his life was like?

Where was God for him in this life? Clearly, you could say God gave him everything that kid with cancer doesn't have, but it didn't help Robin Williams in the end.

Robin Williams was a nice guy, or 'seemed' to be from the perception that the media gave us. I liked him, and was sad to see him go.

Innocent 1,2,3 and 4 year old kids don't 'need' to be given a perception in order to be or not be worthy of 'help' Kids (literally all of them) deserve help when they are dying, literally all of them. And that's just innocent kids we're talking about, let alone the amazing adults we all lose daily to disease, famine, murder, rape, torture... Admit it, if there is a god, he is one brutal mother#####r.

Well, I would argue he gave mankind freewill. If he was to impose changes of circumstances it would interfere with freewill. It sucks I agree, but it was spelled out in the beginning. Humans made their own mess and it is those brutal humans that should be blamed for the situation.

Blame the humans for all the diseases and famine?
I don't think so, I think it's nature. But to those who believe in an omnipresent deity, you should take the blame of your creator. Why worship him/it otherwise???

Actually, you can blame humans for a good chunk of them.

Look at famine ... we produce more than enough to feed the world. There is enough that gets to starving countries to feed them even from wealthier countries, but often corrupt officials keep it from getting where it needs to go, so the famine is never relieved.

Look at Africa. It used to have its own breadbasket that was as productive as the US heartland, but then the African colonial powers handed over their reign to the locals who were corrupt officials and made a practice of seizing the land and giving it to their cronies who knew nothing about how to run the farms. Now, there is no more African breadbasket.

Governments in developed countries think we are so isolated from famine by modernity that they have stopped storing food. The reality is that all it will take is a bad harvest or three to wipe out our food supplies and land even the most developed countries into famine.

We do these things to ourselves as much, if not more, than nature does these days.

Disease is much the same.

We know how to learn the tactics of disease. How it spreads. We can fight it on that level.

Look at HIV. You have to be grade A stupid NOT to know how that spreads. And yet look at how many still get it.

The other STDs are no different. You can mock God and his prohibitions against sex out of marriage, but that simple rule is the Biblical, old school way to avoid getting things like HIV, syphilis, and gonorrhea (which is rapidly becoming multi-drug resistant, btw, meaning we would no way except avoiding multiple partners to avoid it).

And you can argue that God is nowhere, but he has given us knowledge and the potential to master over our domain. He gave us the ability to solve these problems for ourselves if we can find the answers. What on earth do you think science is? Of course, it is again our own flaw that we spend our resources working on how to kill each other.

Thanks for your reply, although It was somewhat if not, extremely predictable..

Just add cancer into the mix, which was the main disease I was referring too.

Let's let that hang there shall we?

Kids with leukaemia dying EVERY SINGLE DAY. PRAYING FOR THEIR LIFE, EVERY SINGLE DAY. KIDS IN INSUFFERABLE PAIN, EVERY SINGLE DAY.

Yeah, God is definitely awesome.

Edit: And to all you cowardly Christians adding stars but not having the balls to stand up and speak for your god, shame on you. You all know who you are.

Frigging adding stars for a child killer.

a reply to: Night Star

What right did I or anyone else have to tear down his belief system, one that gave him comfort and joy, hope, peace and inspiration?

There's nothing wrong with education.

He really did seem like a great kid.

And I'm sure he was.
There is nothing wrong with youths being exposed to other ideas, other beliefs than those with which they are familiar.


You did nothing wrong, nor harmful. Do not blame yourself for speaking things out loud that others were afraid to even consider.

a reply to: OpenEars123

I'll stand up

However I can predict you won't like the answer.

Anyway...

I'll not argue it's Gods creation....

From a Christian point of view we are told that we will go the crucible and Christ will finish what he starts in us. We are also told that it doesn't matter the length of that process. Many people cry out for Christ in their last moments, people of no faith pray in awful moments of human crisis.

A person of Christian faith should be able to understand that no matter what happens on this earth, no matter how hideous, a better life is awaiting for us.

With just this little snippet in mind. All the ills in life that take us away from the living of this world should be a moment for Joy. For the next life is one with Christ.

That said, it's easier for some than others obviously. No one, especially a parent wants to see a loved one in pain or chronic illness etc.

You mentioned kids with Leukaemia praying. Well if they are in Christ, they will have life. The best life imaginable, away from pain and suffering and sorrow and tears. No illness, no hate, no bitterness. Such a glorious life and one where the memory of the pain of the former will be wiped from existence.

Secular people cannot grasp this. They see pain, they don't understand yet still curse God, the God they do not believe in. They question how he can allow such things, but all things here amounts to nothing compared to what awaits.

That aside, what about the people that are healed, through conventional medicine, not just faith? Then when this happens God is never given credit by the same people that condemn God or mock or demand to know why he allows such things when things are bad.

God is good, Just and Loving. That of a chastising parent at times and whilst we may not see why our own parents didn't want us running near the motorway or swimming in a quarry the same applies to our glorious Heavenly Father.

Pain doesn't mean the absence of care and Love

Regards

a reply to: OpenEars123

The book of Job explains it all.

originally posted by: BuzzyWigs
a reply to: spirit_horse
Was just reviewing the thread here and saw this.

But the comparison in you OP of Christians to Santa say a lot. Everyone over 10 knows that is a story. However, that is not necessarily the case with believers in God. I guess it is up to each individual. I say I could care less because I have died twice in my life and know better. However, the experience doesn't jive with any particular dogma, but the reality of a universal consciousness that I think religions try to explain.

I am completely in agreement with you on this.
I have not experienced death yet - but I am very much invested into what those of you who have done have to say about it. I agree with you that no one 'religion' has it 'right.'

One has only to look for the "lowest common denominator" to see where they all intersect>

and that is
The Golden Rule.

Regardless, I could see joining in on discussions of evangelism as atheists always claim they don't want people to hear one side and not the other. Joining in on a theological debate among believers really makes no sense.

But, it does. It really does. If just one person who is 'iffy' about buying whatever story is on offer is helped (one way or the other) to come to a rational and workable stance, then that is worth any effort.

That's the thing. There are more flavors of "religious belief" than there are skin colors.

I doubt anyone that is a believer really cares if you do or don't

So - then, no one cares if people who are not Christians participate? There's no problem whether they 'do' or 'don't' take part in Christian-based topics...right?

I wouldn't. It just seems an odd thing to do if you don't believe as it is a discussion among whatever religion about their beliefs, not whether any of them believe or not.

Sure, if you want to join in although I think we may be splitting hairs. Usually a discussion on points of different chapters and verses to their meaning in the Christian New Testament context between people already believers usually takes place over a given passage or school of thought about a verse or chapter. I don't think people that may be considering would be participating here because they have not been say a christian.

Now, if it were a discussion about why Christianity is the religion to follow and why some non-believer(s) are there trying to learn why they might want to follow said religion, the discussion would be fairly basic to explaining the basic tenants, etc. There an atheist could insert opposing points of view and argue why said candidates may want to explore other realities and it would be fruitful. This would be imho a reasonable motivation for joining in.

So, some threads or topics that use a given starting point and the discussion is on the subject, then an atheist is bringing in comments that believers see as your issue and you don't really have much to say about the nuances of the passage, chapter, whatever that we discuss on the different denominations point of view and how it may be related to differences in our beliefs.

Yes, I personally don't have a problem with it as long as it doesn't come to an atheist starting the name calling, belittling, or other derogatory comments. If it isn't constructive to the conversation, then what you are doing is just trying to disrupt a conversation between people that are already believers on a particular topic of interest to them. What is the point in that scenario. True believers are not going to take what you say seriously. Well, unless they are weak minded and can't handle someone disagreeing with their views which unfortunately has been the case. It disrupts the flow of the discussion with no results.

That is why I said if it was trying to recruit others, there would be believers and non-believers in the thread and then your point of view may be of benefit of the ones concerned with learning about the religion that may be non-believers but are being evangelized. I mentioned before I am not one of those to evangelize. Everyone must follow their own path.

The other issue when atheists belittle and name call is that it creates hostility and disrupts the discussion with no real valid point on the atheists part. Two different discussion types. Some topic types would be fine imho. Others are not about recruiting and really are discussions about issues in our religion that we have contention over because of the many denominations of Christianity.

I guess it would be like Shiite vs. Sunni Muslims discussing passages in the Quran and their arguments between the two schools of thought. As an atheist, what interest do you have engaging that conversation other that cause disruption. The two side are believers and you can't change it by saying you don't believe, their god is Santa Claus or the little man in the sky. It is pure disruption. The place you may be effective is preventing new comers from being recruited, but the above said discussion was not for the new person as it is a complex discussion of believers over points of the scripture in whatever holy book, not to suck some newbie in.

a reply to: drevill

Why is not a concern for myself to be honest. My faith is strong enough and I am more than ready to give an account of it. I'm happy for anyone to discuss and/or disagree

I nor anyone can enforce faith.

This is a charming contribution, and thank you.

Just so you know, I'm not an atheist.

That said are all atheists of the same mindset. Surely being told they are a sinner and will go to hell unless they repent and seek Jesus should not be an issue if their atheistic faith is as strong as a believers???

Woops.
Now you lost me.
Being told "you are a sinner and will go to hell" is one of the major issues here. People who do not subscribe to your doctrine should not be subjected to it. Erm..... Really? No.

People should be subjected to (presented with) all sorts of ideas. Your version is not so special. It is conjecture. It is not "fact."

What is FACT is that many adults use these scriptural "tenets" to terrify their kids; to teach them that people who 'don't believe what they believe' are doomed and going to this horrid, unspeakably awful place called "hell."

a reply to: OpenEars123

You want God to step in and obviously fix everything for you now, instantly. If he did that, then where would it end? He saves Johnny from leukemia ... What about Betty and her diabetes? Should he save my cat from being hyperthyroid? Maybe he should take away my chronic migraine and the bone spur out of my neck?

Where does it end?

See. I know where it ends. It ends when I leave this life at my appointed time. I know it ends. Everyone with faith knows that it ends. All we have to do is be patient.

a reply to: BuzzyWigs

But it shouldn't be an issue to those that don't believe the same

It's like saying to me that im going to die a horrible death because I won't subscribe to Darwinism.

Why should such a comment affect me? It doesn't and the same should be said for the other way around. If an atheist or someone of another faith is disturbed or upset over such a comment, then they need to test their own belief system because it should be meaningless to them.

If you want people to stop saying things such as this then it has to be reciprocated on a global scale down to individual. A sensorship type barrier to free speech is an oxymoron and no one would be able to say anything.

I can say what I wish, if I unintentionally hurt someone, I will apologise for that hurt, even if I don't apologise for the words. That is part of being reasonable and adult during a discussion

Regards

a reply to: ketsuko

I'm sorry to read about how hard/painful you find your existence. Sincerely.