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New riddle/Koan

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posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 09:54 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: InTheLight

Not at all, something completely different, something unexpected.



Please reveal your experiences so we can identify it, if it is to ever be realized.




posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:41 AM
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a reply to: InTheLight

A koan is supposed to stop the thought stream so the quiet thoughts appear within maybe be noticed.



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:47 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: InTheLight

A koan is supposed to stop the thought stream so the quiet thoughts appear within maybe be noticed.


I get that, but when we share our koan musings it is more of a game here, rather than quiet thoughts. When put out there for all of us to ponder, it evokes critical thinking and trips into the realm quantum physics for me, more so than quiet reflection.
edit on 15-6-2016 by InTheLight because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:53 AM
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originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: InTheLight

A koan is supposed to stop the thought stream so the quiet thoughts appear within maybe be noticed.


I get that, but when we share our koan musings it is more of a game here, rather than quiet thoughts. When put out there for all of us to ponder, it evokes critical thinking and trips into the realm quantum physics for me, more so than quiet reflection.

Sorry - I didn't mean thoughts that are quiet but the quiet (stillness) that thoughts appear in. Or the nothingness (non conceptual) that is there beneath the appearance of thingness (concepts).


edit on 15-6-2016 by Itisnowagain because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:56 AM
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a reply to: InTheLight


Please reveal your experiences so we can identify it, if it is to ever be realized.


There are some I daresay that have studied and know a great deal about Koans. Schools of thought, Zen masters etc. In that sense, I know nothing and have no real interest but I recognise Koans for what they are, the method and purpose. It is important too that the student has no idea beforehand, he must be preoccupied with finding the solution, and not lightly so. It is the old magic trick, the slight of hand, a necessary deception to facilitate change.
The Koan's purpose is to separate you from thought. The methodology is to occupy thought with a paradox and not let up.
There is another element to this.



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:56 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: InTheLight

A koan is supposed to stop the thought stream so the quiet thoughts appear within maybe be noticed.


I get that, but when we share our koan musings it is more of a game here, rather than quiet thoughts. When put out there for all of us to ponder, it evokes critical thinking and trips into the realm quantum physics for me, more so than quiet reflection.

Sorry - i don't mean thoughts that are quiet but the quiet that thoughts appear in. Or the nothingness (non conceptual) that is there beneath the appearance of thingness (concepts).



That quiet, for me, is attained through deliberate meditation with purpose not with playing thought/puzzle games.



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:58 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: InTheLight


Please reveal your experiences so we can identify it, if it is to ever be realized.


There are some I daresay that have studied and know a great deal about Koans. Schools of thought, Zen masters etc. In that sense, I know nothing and have no real interest but I recognise Koans for what they are, the method and purpose. It is important too that the student has no idea beforehand, he must be preoccupied with finding the solution, and not lightly so. It is the old magic trick, the slight of hand, a necessary deception to facilitate change.
The Koan's purpose is to separate you from thought. The methodology is to occupy thought with a paradox and not let up.
There is another element to this.








Then it must only be successful with students.



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 10:59 AM
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originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: InTheLight

A koan is supposed to stop the thought stream so the quiet thoughts appear within maybe be noticed.


I get that, but when we share our koan musings it is more of a game here, rather than quiet thoughts. When put out there for all of us to ponder, it evokes critical thinking and trips into the realm quantum physics for me, more so than quiet reflection.

Sorry - i don't mean thoughts that are quiet but the quiet that thoughts appear in. Or the nothingness (non conceptual) that is there beneath the appearance of thingness (concepts).



That quiet, for me, is attained through deliberate meditation with purpose not with playing thought/puzzle games.

A koan has no answer but a riddle does so the OP title is a little misleading.
I am not sure if the OP actually wants an answer to a riddle or if it is a koan?



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 11:08 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Itisnowagain

originally posted by: InTheLight

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: InTheLight

A koan is supposed to stop the thought stream so the quiet thoughts appear within maybe be noticed.


I get that, but when we share our koan musings it is more of a game here, rather than quiet thoughts. When put out there for all of us to ponder, it evokes critical thinking and trips into the realm quantum physics for me, more so than quiet reflection.

Sorry - i don't mean thoughts that are quiet but the quiet that thoughts appear in. Or the nothingness (non conceptual) that is there beneath the appearance of thingness (concepts).



That quiet, for me, is attained through deliberate meditation with purpose not with playing thought/puzzle games.

A koan has no answer but a riddle does so the OP title is a little misleading.
I am not sure if the OP actually wants an answer to a riddle or if it is a koan?


If a riddle, we have many answers for the OP. If a koan then our answers have provided food for thought.



posted on Jun, 15 2016 @ 11:20 AM
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a reply to: InTheLight



Then it must only be successful with students.


Consider this...we are surrounded by Koans really. Meditations upon paradox's of some sort might have a similar result.
I think success might be rare who can say? The thought that the student should be unaware is my own and I only considered it whilst writing. The paradox must be pursued to the point of despair and then pursued some more.
It reminds me too of how so many spiritual experiences have had despair as a catalyst.

The point I am making is that there must be a real attempt by the student to solve the Koan. If he knows it has no solution and that wasn't the goal anyway it would negate the whole process.

edit on 15-6-2016 by midicon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 17 2016 @ 12:17 PM
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a reply to: InTheLight

Let me explain a little about the separation of one's self from thought. It is a pleasant sensation, something new that holds your attention. You don't think 'I am separated from thought', it just happens, (perhaps if the conditions are right) and is rather like watching a scene that has your whole attention and doesn't need any thought, or effort. The thoughts are still there, in fact they seem to rise or appear from nowhere effortlessly, light, smooth and flowing. They are still following the Koan, down all the paths and different ways to come at it, that made you despair in the first place. Somehow you are separate from them but there is also the sense that if you relax your attention for a second, you will lose it. It is a delicate thing. This condition though allows something else to happen whilst your caught up in the distraction and sensation.
I don't say all that as if it's a common thing for me. It only happened once and had a real impact on me.



edit on 17-6-2016 by midicon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 12:34 AM
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originally posted by: InTheLight
a reply to: namelesss

So, it would appear a koan is an attempt to, hopefully, have us realize that our mental struggles in attempting to answer unanswerable riddles is futile. Our energies may be better spent on pursuits that bear the fruit of awareness and service.

That certainly makes sense to me.
It is to exhaust, and transcend, our 'common tools' of rational thought/imagination (ego)!
That magic point of ultimate frustration, and opening, relaxing into Self...



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 01:49 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: namelesss
I made no attempt to answer the riddle posted but was tempted to make a comment on the subject of Koans. Before doing so I thought it might be a good idea to see what google had to say about the subject. Whilst browsing, I noticed a website with a free riddle and Koan service, on impulse I submitted yours. Here is the reply I received via e-mail.

Hi James,
The riddle you submitted is not a Zen riddle (or Koan).
If I look at it in a way I look at Koans, the answer would be: It's me,
myself.
I cannot detach myself from what I am. Therefore I cannot get away
from myself or arrive at myself.
I'm passing through my life, aren't I?

The same is true for everybody.

Regards

Reinhard

No, I did not imbibe it from some Golden Book of Zen Koans/Riddles.
I stumbled on it and found that it works!
It fits the bill, and our Reinhard, if he looks at it the way he looks ar Koans, does he have answers for all of them, or just the ones in his book of Koans?
I'm thinking that asking an Enlightened Zennist might be more beneficial then an unenlightened 'intellect/ego'..
What is the point if there is a book of Koan 'answers'?
Can I not memorize the book and join a monastery and cheat for an 'A'?
That completely loses to point of the Koan!
And his 'answer' is 'confused', at best.



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 01:52 AM
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Light.



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 01:53 AM
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a reply to: namelesss


certainly makes sense to me.


Yet you both are saying different things. InTheLight perhaps describes it as a lesson to understand the futility of rational thought. You describe it as an exhaustive process to achieve satori.



That magic point of ultimate frustration, and opening, relaxing into Self...


I like that, it shows understanding. The relaxing into self is something that we allow and accept whilst our attention is elsewhere. For me it was more like an approach of another, something from outside of me, somehow inside me. As I sat experiencing the sensation of detachment from thought, I became aware of something behind me, slightly to my right. I ignored it, not wanting to give up the sensation I was having. I let it happen. I felt the approach and touch of the other. The first touch is one of recognition.

edit on 18-6-2016 by midicon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 02:02 AM
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No, I did not imbibe it from some Golden Book of Zen Koans/Riddles.
a reply to: namelesss

I didn't think you had. In fact Reinhard was very nice and asked what I thought of his reply. I don't know about your 'Zennist' or 'Egoist' comment, hey it sounds a little egotistical! it is no big deal. I don't think he was trying to undermine you, nor was I when I posted his reply. It was meant to be a light hearted post.


edit on 18-6-2016 by midicon because: (no reason given)



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 08:30 AM
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a reply to: midicon

Your explanation perfectly describes an OBE I once experienced. Where I was separated into many different parts while maintaining myself as a whole within varying conditions. Thank you for that wonderful stepping stone into deeper thought.



posted on Jun, 18 2016 @ 09:24 AM
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a reply to: InTheLight


Thank you for that wonderful stepping stone into deeper thought.


That was a nice thing to say, I appreciate it. I was never sure how to approach this thread, that's why I said that I was 'tempted' to make a comment. I could say more about what follows but perhaps I should leave that for another day.

Regards Midicon.



posted on Jun, 20 2016 @ 07:22 AM
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originally posted by: midicon
a reply to: namelesss


certainly makes sense to me.

Yet you both are saying different things. InTheLight perhaps describes it as a lesson to understand the futility of rational thought. You describe it as an exhaustive process to achieve satori.

I still see the same thing, just two different Perspectives of the same thing.
It 'can' be an exhaustive process, it 'can' happen on moments, yet the same 'it' happens.
I find the Koan Zen methods to closely reflect mans growth and maturity.
Especially the 'spiritual' aspect.
We were Blissed out apes happily swinging through the trees when, some wandering 'thought' entity saw planet Earth, and all those blissed out apes, and immediately moved in.
And then, 130,000 tears later... 'this'.

The 'Forbidden Fruit from the tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is 'thought/imagination'!
Monkeys imagined nuclear weapons and banana plantations and man has used his own vain thoughts to 'save himself', to seek his idea of 'Happiness'.
And, ever since, for the last 130,000 years, anyway, we have exhausted all our intellectual resources, tried all the vain tricks, answered all the Koans, all the 'answers' and, look at the state that we have made of the world, all us thinking monkeys!
Thought/imagination, vanity, Pride, BLIND us to unconditional Love/Enlightenment!
THAT is why it was warned against, sincerely, by the 'sin' label! That is why (believing the) ego (thoughts) is warned against in most higher teachings.




That magic point of ultimate frustration, and opening, relaxing into Self...

I like that, it shows understanding. The relaxing into self is something that we allow and accept whilst our attention is elsewhere.

I was right there until you said that your 'attention' can be elsewhere.
Mindfulness is Here! Now!
I'm not talking about a pleasant trip down memory lane... *__-


For me it was more like an approach of another, something from outside of me, somehow inside me. As I sat experiencing the sensation of detachment from thought, I became aware of something behind me, slightly to my right. I ignored it, not wanting to give up the sensation I was having. I let it happen. I felt the approach and touch of the other. The first touch is one of recognition.

Now I feel as if I walked in at the end of a movie! *__-
I didn't know that there was 'others' in the Enlightened state of Universal Oneness.
Or are we talking of different things?

"Perhaps it is the curvature of space that, like a funhouse mirror distorting our own reflection, we imagine strangers." - Mythopoeicon



posted on Jun, 20 2016 @ 07:26 AM
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originally posted by: midicon


No, I did not imbibe it from some Golden Book of Zen Koans/Riddles.
a reply to: namelesss

I didn't think you had. In fact Reinhard was very nice and asked what I thought of his reply. I don't know about your 'Zennist' or 'Egoist' comment, hey it sounds a little egotistical! it is no big deal. I don't think he was trying to undermine you, nor was I when I posted his reply. It was meant to be a light hearted post.

I can be dense at times. I get so into seriously taking questions and putting such time into crafting responses that sometimes, the humorous and light hearted can slip into the 'serious' bin,
Damned secretary! *__-
I wonder what he'd respond to my reply?
Perhaps you could invite him to drop by? *__-



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