Trans*: The Shape of Things to Come

a reply to: breakingbs

Not hard to read one line and agree.
I have been following this thread.

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: Debunkology

Hey, it would be absolutely pointless for me to argue these "ideas" with you because all those papers and facts you've published in genetics and psychiatry unquestionably supersede anything I could come up with. I'm also sure other scientists, researchers and medical professionals that have been seriously looking into this since the 1920's would have appreciated you sharing your clear and concise facts and saved them all the trouble.

You win! Discussion over.

In your attempt at sarcasm, you are actually right. My argument does supersede yours because I am talking about facts in biology rather than ideas of psychiatry.

David C. Page, MD, is a professor of biology at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and the director of the Whitehead Institute, where he has a laboratory devoted to the study of the Y-chromosome. His lab mapped the human Y chromosome in 1992. In 2003, his research group sequenced the human Y chromosome.

In his papers he has come up with the findings that.

Men share 99.9% of DNA with other men.
Women share 99.9% of DNA with other woman.

However men and women share 98.5% of DNA with each other.

For comparison

Male chimpanzees share 98.5% of DNA with Male Humans
Female chimpanzee share 98.5% of DNA with female humans

Here is Dr David Page giving a short talk with his findings here.



This guy has dedicated decades of his life researching the x and y chromosome and has many awards. He is the best in his field.

We have 10,000,000,000,000 cells in our body
Within the nucleus of these 10 trillion cells, we carry the same 23 pairs of chromosomes
1 pair of chromosomes is either XX (female) or XY (male).

This means that our gender is fundamental to who we are because every single cell in our bodies carry either XX or XY. 10,000,000,000,000 of them.

He argues that the XX and XY is not restricted to our sexual organs. Which is wrongly assumed by doctors and those in psychiatry even today.


A male that has gone under 'gender re-assignment surgery' to make them look 'female' is still 15x genetically different to a natural born female, than to a natural born male. Because they are fundamentally still male. Every single cell in their body reveals this.

A female that has gone under 'gender re-assignment surgery' to make them look ‘male’ is still 2.5x more likely to develop Rheumatoid Arthritis and 6x more likely to develop Lupus than natural born males because they are still fundamentally female. This is also similar considering other diseases and the effect other diseases have on each gender.

Just think about this for a moment.

Every single cell in a natural born male’s body, 10,000,000,000,000 of them carries the male chromosome.

Every single cell in a natural born female’s body, 10,000,000,000,000 of them carries the female chromosome.

They on the very rare occasion may develop a condition in which they “feel” like they should be the opposite sex. But every single cell in their body reveals otherwise.

DNA is fundamental to who we are.

a reply to: Debunkology

Good post and I mean that seriously. It was.

Of course, everyone runs around with a genetic testing kit in their pocket and these things really matter in people's day-to-day lives because we always evaluate those around us on a microscopic cellular level to make sure their chromosomes verify their psychology.

originally posted by: Debunkology
A female that has gone under 'gender re-assignment surgery' to make them look ‘male’ is still 2.5x more likely to develop Rheumatoid Arthritis and 6x more likely to develop Lupus than natural born males because they are still fundamentally female. This is also similar considering other diseases and the effect other diseases have on each gender.

Well, after now watching the video, this conclusion that you have drawn is purely your own extrapolation of what was said without any research or statistics to back it up whatsoever. I also find it curious that the presenter quickly glosses over and dismisses sex hormones as being a factor in disease instead of his preferred stance that it is all genetics.

Researchers from Cedars-Sinai Medical Center in Los Angeles measured insulin resistance and fat accumulation in the liver of four transgender women who underwent bilateral orchiectomy and were taking female hormones and eight transgender women who were only using female hormones. The researchers found that transgender women only taking hormones exhibited insulin resistance and had greater fat accumulation in the liver. According to lead researcher Michael Nelson, PhD, transgender women with the highest level of testosterone had the poorest metabolic health. The researchers also observed that the amount of fat accumulation in the liver was related to degree of insulin resistance.

Not to discount the work of David C. Page but cross-sex hormones affect a variety of disease factors.

Beyond that, we're talking about behavior, psychology and identity. If that were all a matter of chromosomes, then we wouldn't have transgender people at all.

a reply to: Freija

I accept your point about the influence of sex hormones and desease and that there is not enough concrete research within this field. However the rest of my points still stand.

Thanks Frieja for taking over the thread. My illness fluctuates greatly . Brain fog and also word blocks in speech occur when I am poorly. I made a couple of blatant mistakes in a couple of posts on other threads and should have taken it as a warning. That is is why my threads and posts recently have more quotes and links and less of me *thanks Firefox for a spell checker* I am not going to post any threads until I feel a lot better and can follow them through.

In response to Discotech.

Thank you for some interesting concepts to think about. I see Frieja answered your last question to me far more eloquently than I could have answered at the present time.

Several questions for you ...

1) Is anorexia compatible with a healthy happy productive life?

2) Something to consider.

Lynn Conway is a famed pioneer of microelectronics chip design. Her innovations during the 1970's at the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center (PARC) have impacted chip design worldwide. Many high-tech companies and computing methods have foundations in her work.

Thousands of chip designers learned their craft from Lynn's textbook Introduction to VLSI Systems, which she co-authored with Prof. Carver Mead of Caltech. Thousands more did their first VLSI design projects using the government's MOSIS prototyping system, which is based directly on Lynn's work at PARC. Much of the modern silicon chip design revolution is based on her work.

Lynn went on to win many awards and high honors, including election as a Member of the National Academy of Engineering, the highest professional recognition an engineer can receive.

Do you think Lynn has delusions, one of the cornerstones of psychotic illness? Would an individual who perceived themselves to be Jesus be able to reach a position of pre-eminence?

It is interesting to note that she had to live in stealth-mode to achieve this ie he kept her gender reassignment secret.

Link

a reply to: Skywatcher2011

Do I feel sorry for the consequences that TG people face in society as a result of THEIR choice to lie to others before they sleep with them? Hell no...a normal person doesn't do such stupid s**t.

I like the way you completely dismiss binary heterosexuals who sleep with others knowing they are HIV but do not disclose it. Your argument relates mainly to the selfish aims of some individuals across the whole of society. Some transgender have to operate in stealth mode (see above comment).

So you have concerns that maybe some of the women you have slept with may be transgender? I would be more concerned about catching HIV. Around 20 years ago I went through a phase of one night stands. I came away with either a good, average, crap experience. I did not waste time and energy on analysing the individual (some of them I didn't even get a name). How very strange to ponder to this idea.

a reply to: Debunkology

Interesting post. To imply this also infers that current scientific investigative technology is sufficient to make this claim.

originally posted by: deliberator
a reply to: WhiteHat

they want to change kids at impossible ages

This really demonstrates that you have no knowledge of transgender children issues. Who is "they" and what does 'impossible ages" mean?

You do realise that children do not have surgery?

I realize that arguing this will be futile for both of us, so why don't we agree to disagree?

the question is can we, the normal ones really identify with trans people?

Isn't this the same argument used against black Americans in the 20th century?

I don't know, is the same argument?
Are the transgender people as many as the black people, not only Americans but Africans and from other places as well?
Did the black people tried to redefine the human biology and pretend that white skin is a fluid thing, a social construct? Did they try to convince others that black on the outside is no relevant as long as you are white on the inside? Did they ever state that they are white?
I don't think so; black people wanted to have equal rights with white people, and hispanics and so on, and it was only logical to be so.
Sorry but is a poor comparison, black people are a race of people, and we have many of these; being transgender... well, is something else. Hope you can now understand the "hard to identify with" part.

And what you didn't understand from my post is that I don't deny the validity of transgender phenomena, nor their rights. Again, is only logical to be treated like any other human being.
What I deny is the need to make a "revolution" out of some very, very small minority of people frustrated with their own gender identity and their need to wear woman clothes over their male bodies. I believe we have bigger and more serious problems that needs a revolution.
But again we can agree to disagree, and let us pick the cause each one of us thinks is worth fighting for.

a reply to: WhiteHat

You are entitled to have whatever opinion you want to have. I would never force my opinion on anyone but I'll certainly express it nor would I want someone to force their opinion me but I do like to present information and points of view that may help others think about and examine their own feelings and maybe come to some different conclusions.

Occasionally this actually happens but most often, people are not receptive to ever changing the views they maybe grew up with or are part of religious beliefs or sometimes they simply lack accurate information. It's hard to help those that don't want to be helped but you never know who that might be so it's hard for me to just roll over and give up. I don't intend to be obnoxious and apologize for the times when I come across that way. When you are knowledgeable about a subject and feel strongly about it, it is hard to avoid emotional moments. Advocating for transgender children makes this particularly true.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
...people frustrated with their own gender identity and their need to wear woman clothes over their male bodies.

I wonder if you would mind expanding and clarifying a bit on this sentence I quoted because in some respects and for some trans people, you may not even realize it but I think many of them would find your comment highly offensive. Who or what are you referring to with this statement? Considering there are many different things under the trans "umbrella", it is hard to know what you are talking about exactly.

You do know that there are trans people that are not the least bit frustrated or confused about their gender and a good number of them don't have male bodies unless you're hung up on the invisible chromosome thing. You also know there are natal female transgender men too, right? They like to wear men's clothes "over their female bodies". You're also aware being transgender, at least for some of them has nothing to do with a "need" for wearing women's clothes any more than you "need" to, right? (unless you don't - I'm open to all gender expressions)

Thanks for your time and for helping me understand.

a reply to: Freija
I am sorry if someone take that phrase as offensive, my intention was not to make it personally. But when we generalize things we tend to talk like that, for example "crazy cats lady" or "brain washed religious people". Now if I have ten cats I may take that expression as offensive and proceed to prove that I'm not crazy, I just love cats. Or I can shrug it off and go tend to my beloved cats.
It was in the context of things being worth of a revolution or not.
So I don't intend to clarify it any further, especially because

there are many different things under the trans "umbrella"

and not all of them are genuine trans issues. But is not my business to make light in these matters, nor the topic of this thread. I will leave that to specialists and people personally involved.
And again, my apologizes if it sounded offensive to you.

ETA
It just crossed my mind reading this skillful disclaimer.

Occasionally this actually happens but most often, people are not receptive to ever changing the views they maybe grew up with or are part of religious beliefs or sometimes they simply lack accurate information. It's hard to help those that don't want to be helped but you never know who that might be so it's hard for me to just roll over and give up. I don't intend to be obnoxious and apologize for the times when I come across that way. When you are knowledgeable about a subject and feel strongly about it, it is hard to avoid emotional moments. Advocating for transgender children makes this particularly true.

Maybe is not about the people who need this kind of help, but is more about trans people needing it? Maybe the reasons are a bit more selfish than "helping" people to understand? If not to you, to the overwhelming majority of trans activists out there.

Because I know for sure that I don't need to be helped to understand how out of a sudden I'm not a woman anymore but a "cisgender", how I'm "bigoted" for not understanding how someone born male thinks about himself as a woman and then go on being sexually attracted to other women. How that makes me, someone who never had a gender problem in my life "sexually insecure".
And I definitely cannot understand how from all the women in the world, no one is more worthy of being the woman of the year than a male who transitioned to a woman. There is no good left in this world it seems, except for trans heroes.

Yet even if I don't understand some things or some people, I can let them be, as long as they let me be in my happy ignorance. But it seems that "let them be" is not even close to be enough for some people. They want to be treated as "gender unicorns". They want media coverage every other day, they want awards and a place in the humanity "hall of fame".(again, I don't refer at you personally, more at the person in the OP's article)
Did trans people ever think that "cisgenders" can be offended too sometimes, and their feelings might also matter?
Maybe people's resistance have something to do with that?

As I never met a trans person in my life, and even if I will meet one I'm not going to transform into a primitive ape and hunt it down but behave like with any other person, do I really need to be "helped" deeper in a problem that is not and never was my business? And many others like me?

This whole "identification" thing will forever remain weird to me. If a "trans-gendered" person were the only person in the world...would they attempt to modify their sexual appearance? If not...then why now with other people around? I think that question and especially the answer leads to a conversation many people don't wish to discuss.

The human choice to modify one's body, while a right I would never deny them, is an unnatural thing. It isn't evolution. Evolution is natural and preferred method of change for any animal. And if an evolution of trans-gendered people isn't going to happen via evolution...then it in itself isn't natural or an advancement of the human animal...it is just a disguise worn by a small group of people who prefer the change. Not much different from a tattoo or body piercing. And again...you have every right to do this to yourself...I have no problem with that.

You don't offend me...you don't annoy me...I don't really care what another person does to their body. I am slightly concerned from a scientific standpoint why this urge is there. I am curious how it parallels other "perceptions" of oneself. From my discussions with others and some self-education, I have personally decided that I lean toward this "identification" thing to be a mental "situation". No...I don't mean that as in "crazy"...I mean that as something an individual is born with. With that said...most things a minority is born with are considered a problem and attempts are made to resolve it. Which makes this all that more "strange".

I'll probably never know the answers...I doubt anyone ever will. And if they did, would a proven scientific answer ever see the light of day? Would finding out there is a curable "problem" be accepted? I doubt it. Would finding out there is the "soul" of one sex reborn in the body of another be accepted? I doubt that also. But I have to admit I find it interesting. What I find to be a shame is that few people that "identify" in that way are truly willing to discuss it in depth to allow anyone else to understand better. Logical questions and discussions turn emotional and are quickly dismissed and the person asking is registered as a "hater" or intolerant. That is really a shame.

Anyway...just an observation.

a reply to: Debunkology

Isn't our consciousness also fundamental to who we are? Without conscious perception of self, who are we? What are we? If there is a neurological (physical, not psychological) anomaly that affects how our consciousness perceives ourselves, and that perception doesn't match the DNA - what is a person supposed to do? You can't just ignore your conscious perception of yourself at the most basic level of male/female. Trying to ignore it does nothing but cause psychological harm.

There is no pill you can take that will solve this discrepancy between conscious perception of gender and DNA. There is no therapy - you can't "talk" someone out of their conscious perception of gender. This has been proven time and time again by medical and mental healthcare professionals.

Maybe some day in the future, we will be able to physically change the DNA to match what the brain says. Or, maybe we will be able to physically change the brain to match what the DNA says. Today, we can't do either of those things. So the question is, how do we deal with people whose brain (conscious perception of themselves) doesn't match their DNA when it comes to gender? The professionals say that the only solution or "cure" is to help the person live their life as close as possible to their conscious perception of gender. That includes thinking of them and referring to them in society as the gender they identify with consciously. Right now, today, no other solution has been proven to work without seriously psychologically damaging the person and causing harm.

So you can make the argument that if someone's DNA is male, that person is and always will be male. From a scientific physiological standpoint, you may be right. But from a societal and human consciousness standpoint, you are wrong.

originally posted by: WhiteHat
a reply to: Freija
I am sorry if someone take that phrase as offensive, my intention was not to make it personally. But when we generalize things we tend to talk like that, for example "crazy cats lady" or "brain washed religious people". Now if I have ten cats I may take that expression as offensive and proceed to prove that I'm not crazy, I just love cats. Or I can shrug it off and go tend to my beloved cats.
It was in the context of things being worth of a revolution or not.
So I don't intend to clarify it any further, especially because

there are many different things under the trans "umbrella"...

--- and not all of them are genuine trans issues.

Now you've got me even more curious to know what you consider "genuine trans issues"? That's kind of what I was trying to determine. Where do you draw the line and what are the qualifications for authenticity? And calling someone a crazy cat lady because she has 10 cats is hardly as offensive as saying transgender woman are just frustrated men that like to wear women's clothes. All I was pointing out is that is what it sounded like you were saying and I wanted to give you an opportunity to clarify yourself before someone did take offense and start raking you over the coals for it. If that is what you meant to say, then someone probably should.

Occasionally this actually happens but most often, people are not receptive to ever changing the views they maybe grew up with or are part of religious beliefs or sometimes they simply lack accurate information. It's hard to help those that don't want to be helped...

--Maybe is not about the people who need this kind of help, but is more about trans people needing it? Maybe the reasons are a bit more selfish than "helping" people to understand?

I got no dog in this fight other than to bring awareness and information to people to elevate the understanding of the things trans kids and their families have to face. The more people know about transgender issues and people, the less difficult their lives become when dealing with those around them.

Because I know for sure that I don't need to be helped to understand how out of a sudden I'm not a woman anymore but a "cisgender".

Wait what? Cisgender or just cis for short is an antonym or the opposite of transgender or trans. Cis and trans are both terms used in chemistry. It is not meant to be dismissive in any way, just descriptive and how in the world does that have anything to do with you being a woman? I suppose you don't like to be called heterosexual either?

And I definitely cannot understand how from all the women in the world, no one is more worthy of being the woman of the year than a male who transitioned to a woman.

I gotta say I think we're on the same page on that?

Did you ever think that "cisgenders" can be offended too sometimes, and their feelings might matter also?
Maybe people's resistance have something to do with that?

Offended by...what? That people are standing up and advocating for transfolks to exist and receive the same dignity and respect as everyone else or that there even are transgender people? If they bother you or make uncomfortable or confused or learning about them hurts your feelings, just don't read the threads.

In your first post, you said:

What is so wrong to admitting that they are "different", and go on with their lives, and let the rest of us do the same?

Well, they do just want to go on with their lives but those claiming some moral or "normal" superiority want to exclude them as not part of "the rest of us". They are disenfranchised and dehumanized and rejected by society and you wonder why so many commit suicide, can't get a job or end up homeless on the street doing sex work just to survive. You and me and they and them are all on the bus together and some are tired of sitting in the back. What gets me going is these kids that are born gender dysphoric or develop it at an early age having to grow up in a world where so life is so unnecessarily difficult for them and I want to do something about that. To me, that makes hearing a Sarah McLachlan song and seeing pictures of mistreated animals like a picnic in the park by comparison to having my heartstrings tugged on my these kids and their families. Maybe that explains why I'm so vocal about this?