Trans*: The Shape of Things to Come

originally posted by: deliberator
a reply to: breakingbs

You individuals know alot about getting yourselves surrounded by women in a total non sexual context, and then proceed from there to have what- conversations???

Are we talking about gay or transgender individuals?

Wimmim. U know. Womeen.


Hold on edit, no, people who were born that way. I think you're complicating the- ahhhh nevermind...

a reply to: deliberator

Isn't a fetish the same though ?

Nobody has any control over what they like/dislike they either do or don't, the same way a person is either gay, straight or bi, the same way a person thinks of their self as male or female

But I feel compelled to ask the philosophical question of apart from genitalia, what is it that defines us as male/female if it was our genitalia then trans wouldn't be trans unless they think their genitalia is the wrong type of genitalia ?

And I will say, where do we draw the line with the whole "acceptance" as boundaries keep getting pushed further, but all of us can probably agree that certain extreme fetishes or for instance that 54 year old trans who believes she is a 6 year old girl are just wrong/immoral ? Are we really expected to accept that ? I'm an open minded person and don't mind if you're gay, bi, trans, black, Chinese or Jewish but I just cannot accept a 54 year old former man is now a 6 year old girl but judging from the OP we are supposed to accept it ?

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: incoserv

Bit of a dip into histrionics and hyperbole there, don't you think? Equating Hitler and invalidation of contract law (property rights) to the evils of trans* children and the pending destruction/self-destruction of your perception of reality seems rather melodramatic and apocalyptic. How does what anybody else does as far as how they dress or act even have any effect on you?

As you watch this interesting show, don't forget the popcorn.

Seems to you like a dip into histrionics and hyperbole. Until it all comes true. But then, it's too late.

At any rate, faithful to the kind of rhetorical battle ax that the Übermensch wields, you attack my position as being "histrionic" and "hyperbolic," but you do not actually address in any way the actual substance of what I said.

Not that I expected you to.

Übermensch is Übermensch. Period. Whatever his stripe, whatever drum he beats, whatever epoch he marches in, whatever mask or uniform he wears, he is always the same at the core. His motives are the same. The fruit of his warfare is the same.

My popcorn is hot and buttered.

Darn! Double post again.

a reply to: breakingbs

If you are referring to me personally I am male, very masculine, not particulary interested in fashion (jeans and a T), have no attraction to female interests/hobbies or attire.

I only have two close female friends (the rest are male mainly straight). These 2 females are either telling me about what is wrong in their relationships or trying to matchmake me with someone they find attractive (both of these things are quite annoying).

Was your intention to show a causal link between an effeminate gay who hangs with girl and transgenderism?

originally posted by: incoserv

Übermensch is Übermensch. Period. Whatever his stripe, whatever drum he beats, whatever epoch he marches in, whatever mask or uniform he wears, he is always the same at the core. His motives are the same. The fruit of his warfare is the same.

Alrighty then. Let's just say that transgender, gender non-conforming and gender variant children are the spawn of Satan and mini-me copies of the anti-Christ himself and that the sky is falling and the world and civilization set to implode at any minute.

What other irrational or unfounded fears are you living with in your reality?

a reply to: deliberator



How do you have the patience to be subversive? And no, my "intention" was not intellectual, causal or...anything like that.
...


Yeah and i agree thats annoying. Sry, btw my computer is malfunctioning and im typing against time.

originally posted by: Freija

originally posted by: incoserv

Übermensch is Übermensch. Period. Whatever his stripe, whatever drum he beats, whatever epoch he marches in, whatever mask or uniform he wears, he is always the same at the core. His motives are the same. The fruit of his warfare is the same.

Alrighty then. Let's just say that transgender, gender non-conforming and gender variant children are the spawn of Satan and mini-me copies of the anti-Christ himself and that the sky is falling and the world and civilization set to implode at any minute.

What other irrational or unfounded fears are you living with in your reality?

Again, unable to actually address the substance of what i said. The hyperbole is yours. I never said anything about "spawn of Satan" or the anti-Christ.

Your fiery darts are damp and falling short.

a reply to: Freija

Both of yall, the Hitler argument has no place here. Its like...irrelevant man. I consider myself germanic (uh cause i am.) Hitler, no hitler, its like some other thing.

originally posted by: breakingbs
a reply to: Freija

Both of yall, the Hitler argument has no place here. Its like...irrelevant man. I consider myself germanic (uh cause i am.)

It's not a "Hitler arugment." It's about the concept of the Übermensch. Study it out.

It just so happens that Mr. Adolf considered himself Übermensch and was something of a disciple of Friedrich, thus he happens to be perhaps the ultimate manifestation of the Übermensch and the one time that the Übermensch philosophy was allowed to run its course.

This is, ultimately, about an Übermensch mentality. Those who seek to re-define reality, to reshape the world according to their own definition of what is and is not, are self-appointed Übermensch. (Actually, all Übermensch are self-appointed. That's the point)

(Or perhaps I am violating safe spaces here and "Hitler" is a trigger?)

a reply to: Discotech

The goal of fetishism is sexual arousal and it is intermittent rather than continuous. The goal of transgenderism is not sexual arousal.

I am most certainly not endorsing the 54 year old. He thinks he is 6 years old which is either fetish in nature or mental illness.

I am getting tired as it 2am here. I will answer the other part of your post tomorrow if that ok.

a reply to: incoserv



Its a german concept. It carries the connotation of all that stuff in public perception. Which is actually more important than any piffy little details i might "study out." Its not about my personal knowledge. I know already. Cute about the safe spaces tho.

a reply to: incoserv

Perhaps then you could restate the substance of your position in less flowery terms so that those of less eloquence than yourself can understand what the hell your substance is?

I am happy to engage and discuss with you but I find your use of Nietzsch's Übermensch an evasive politicizing ploy to avoid plain English explanation of what you really think. Help me out and to find the mark so that I can address what your points are.

originally posted by: breakingbs
a reply to: incoserv

Its a german concept. It carries the connotation of all that stuff in public perception. Which is actually more important than any piffy little details i might "study out." Its not about me. Cute about the safe spaces though.

As a philosophy, it's become much broader than "a german concept." Nietzsche's existential nihilism embodies a broad school of thought and an encompassing world-view. It's not "piffy little details." It's the meat of this entire dialog.

This concept of redefining reality is right out of Friedrich's playbook.

As to the "safe spaces," yeah, I was being a bit snarky. But, damn, one never knows these days.

a reply to: incoserv


I know, it seems kike were on the same side, you just...violated my safe space...




Actually, its relatively minor. We're ok.

Btw, ill try to keep up but my comp. Is malfunctioning, keep getting blankscreens, its neither here nor there. Just older tech.

a reply to: deliberator

But my point is, you do not choose your fetish it doesn't matter the goal, it is not choice, like sexual orientation is not a choice, the only choice is acting out that fetish or not, likewise acting out your sexual orientation.

To simplify things for an example I don't like sprouts, no matter how many sprouts I eat I still won't like sprouts, I never consciously choose to dislike them, I just dislike them. Likes/dislikes/fetishes all fall under the same spectrum as sexual orientation it just "is" and it's out of our control.

Now as to your opinion on the 54 year old is it not hypocritical to rationalise your disapproval for them by saying it's either fetish or mental illness, by this way of thinking it's perfectly acceptable for someone with a less open mind towards these states of being to say that a trans is just suffering from mental illness no ? And it clearly shows despite your stance on acceptance, you yourself, draw a line where you just cannot accept and define a state of being as a mental illness, so where do we draw the line ? Are we to be tolerant or not because having boundaries means we're not truly tolerant and are still dictating to some how they should live their life

Yes it's fine, answer when you have time

originally posted by: Freija
a reply to: incoserv

Perhaps then you could restate the substance of your position in less flowery terms so that those of less eloquence than yourself can understand what the hell your substance is?

I am happy to engage and discuss with you but I find your use of Nietzsch's Übermensch an evasive politicizing ploy to avoid plain English explanation of what you really think. Help me out and to find the mark so that I can address what your points are.

I actually have work to do tonight and can't spend much more time here. I recommend that you do some research on your own into Nietzsche, existential nihilism and the idea of the Übermensch. There's nothing evasive or politicizing about it. It's not ploy. It is plain English. English speakers have talked about these topics for years. Nietzsche died in 1900, so English speakers have been using these terms at least since the late 1800s.

Just because you are unfamiliar with the topic does not invalidate it. What is is we say around here? Oh, yeah: Deny ignorance.

In brief (and this explanation is woefully lacking, hence my encouragement that you research it out yourself), the Übermensch (or "over man") is the man who embraces the utter meaninglessness of everything, casting off the idea of any such thing as a transcendent reality, standard or meaning to existence. Such a person has stared into the void of pointless existence, bravely faced up to the fact that it's all about nothing, and has then set to re-define his reality and create "new values." (Perhaps better said define, as lacking any transcendent or fixed reality nothing is actually really defined in the first place.)

The problem is that if I stare into the void, decide that there is nothing out there and all existence is meaningless and then set out to create my new reality and new values and somebody else comes along and says that my arbitrary reality and values don't line up with their arbitrary reality and values and theirs are better, there is absolutely no umpire to say who is right. As a result, the one with the biggest stick, gun, army or network of death camps wins.

LIke it or not, that is what it means to re-define reality.

This is much more than "a german concept" or "piffy little details." For many in this world, the philosophy defines thier world-view. Sadly, most people never think through the ultimate and unavoidable results of it.

a reply to: incoserv

"Übermensch" is ultimately a good thing. The reason Hitler's application of the concept was nefarious was because of his belief in the "untermensch".

When applied on a personal level, it is the highest form of agency and self determination. To transcend herd group think and shape your own perspectives based on experience and science is the ultimate expression of the Übermensch.

Im gonna have to cut out. God I hope this doesnt get too out of hand.

So long...

a reply to: incoserv

One thing I find puzzling with that whole concept is, why bother if your belief is that existence is utterly pointless and worthless ? Why go to all the trouble of trying to create a new temporary reality and enforce it upon others if you know that no matter how successful that attempt is ultimately it's all for nothing ? Surely any true nihilist would just end their pointless existence than draw out the inevitable ?