Why do people want to call teenagers children?

a reply to: Profusionvery well I would say that was appropriately clarified. Please then to forgive my hostility.

a reply to: Profusion

Israel also forces every man and woman to join the IDF. I don't think we should be using Israel as an example...at all...ever.

Because the dictionary says so

Child may also describe a relationship with a parent (such as sons and daughters of any age)[3] My children are grown up

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Any normal loving parent will see they children forever as yummy little babies .. they can still smell the breast milk on you !!

a reply to: Profusion

If it's worked for the Jews for over a thousand years, I don't see how anyone can argue with that kind of success.

The Jews, despite their long and venerable history, are a people in decline. There are less than 12 million of them in all the world.

I am not suggesting this is because Jewish boys are treated as men from the age of 13; merely that the customs of Jewry are examples taken from a disappearing culture.

I find it interesting that amongst another vanishing race, the Parsis, young males undergo a similar ritual initiation into manhood, known as the navjoth. Parsis, whose success in business and culture has led to them being sometimes called 'the Jews of India', are another vanishing race, currently down to less than 100,000 individuals worldwide. An interesting thought to consider.

Personally, I think thirteen is an absurd age to begin considering someone an adult. There may be some doubt about an eighteen-year-old, but a thirteen-year-old, sexually mature though he or she may be, is indubitably a child.

originally posted by: Profusion


If it's worked for the Jews for over a thousand years, I don't see how anyone can argue with that kind of success.

Life today can hardly be compared with life over a thousand years ago, when

life span was around 40 years of age. Life has moved on and is very little like

it was then! .... I think its called Progress!

That would take the guesswork out of what you see in the United States for example. With each state setting their own age at which someone can be tried as an adult, I would say it's not fair for the nation as a whole. In one US state you can't be tried as an adult until you're 15, in others you can be tried as an adult at 10 years old. That doesn't seem right to me.

My plan would be to adopt the "bar mitzvah" model and make the age one can be tried as an adult 13 years old

Personally I believe if you're old enough to do the crime ... you're old enough

to do the time.

That would be consistent with my personal beliefs and convictions. BTW, I wouldn't tie any of the above to a religion. I just think it's a fair way to approach this problem.

You seem to think that a "single cutoff age" wouldn't work but again, if it's worked for the Jewish people for so long, on what basis could you criticize it?

So if they were considered adult at 13/15 years a time when parents sometimes

have problems with their 'children's' attendance in school, many would happily

not complete their education?

Being 'adult' would they be savvy enough to vote for a government? OR

consume alcohol in a responsible manner? Best of all I, as a motorist would

not be happy with the influx of 'boy racers' on the road, its bad enough when

they get their licenses at 17/18 years!


All 'new age' problems that were not there a thousand years ago and

therefor hardly comparable?

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Profusion

If it's worked for the Jews for over a thousand years, I don't see how anyone can argue with that kind of success.

The Jews, despite their long and venerable history, are a people in decline. There are less than 12 million of them in all the world.

Perhaps you should check sources next time? Why bother writing the above without providing a source to back up your assertion?

As of 2010, there were nearly 14 million Jews around the world. In 2050, the Jewish population is expected to number about 16 million. The share of the world’s population that is Jewish – 0.2% – is expected to remain about the same in 2050 as it was in 2010.
www.pewforum.org...

originally posted by: Astyanax
a reply to: Profusion

Personally, I think thirteen is an absurd age to begin considering someone an adult. There may be some doubt about an eighteen-year-old, but a thirteen-year-old, sexually mature though he or she may be, is indubitably a child.

Indubitably? How is it that the following situation exists in your opinion?

There is no national standard in determining at what age a child can be treated as an adult in the criminal justice system. The result is that approximately 200,000 American children are charged and incarcerated every year -- as adults, according to the Open Society Foundations.

Fourteen states have no minimum age at which children can be prosecuted as adults, according to the Equal Justice Initiative. In some cases children younger than 10 have been prosecuted as adults.
Should 11-year-olds be charged with adult crimes?

What would you say to children such as the following?

11-year-old Pennsylvanian is youngest person in world to face life without parole

Would you tell him, "You're indubitably a child, what's happening to you is wrong." How is that going to help him?

I'm proposing a system that would solve the possible injustices involved with the above facts. The "bar mitzvah" concept has over a thousand year history of working very well. For that reason I would say it's practical and it can be trusted.

I think it's a very good solution to balancing out the point of views of people such as yourself and the author of the CNN article above with the views of those who want to keep the current system in place:

Why a 10-year-old in Pennsylvania can be tried for murder as an adult (+video)

I'm proposing a way to bring balance to the two sides in a practical way. What's your proposal to do that? You have to realize this is a battle between two camps of idealists. Idealists usually will not give in so a compromise needs to be found between the camps and in most situations I believe that's exactly how it should be.

What's the point of both sides telling each other, "I'm obviously right"... The system will end up being even more unjust with greater imbalances than we see now.

It will be this:

Gov. Malloy Wants Minimum Age to Be Tried as Adult Set at 21

Versus this:

11-year-old Pennsylvanian is youngest person in world to face life without parole

I find it shocking that the above is happening in one country, how about you? Since idealists are rarely convinced to change their beloved beliefs, I believe a practical solution needs to be found to bring the camps together. Again, what's your proposal?

a reply to: Profusion

Perhaps you should check sources next time? Why bother writing the above without providing a source to back up your assertion?

I was relying on memory. My statistic appears to be a few years out of date, though perhaps not as inaccurate as you make out: here are a few more estimates of the current size of the global Jewish population, taken from the Web.

13.3 million

13.9 million

14.2 million

16.5 million

The point is not the actual number. The point is that the number is tiny — less than 0.2% of humanity — and growing more slowly than that of the world’s population as a whole. In other words, Jewish culture does not seem to have done a great deal to help Jews survive and thrive. They are a population in relative decline.

Of course, the Jews are also a historically persecuted people, countless numbers of whom have been murdered or prevented from breeding by European Christians over the last two thousand years. Yet this, too, is not entirely unconnected with their religion and culture.

Before you accuse me of anti-Semitism, allow me make myself clear. I’m not saying the Jews are to blame for their own persecution. I’m saying that their culture has not been able to protect them from it effectively, nor has it helped them to grow and thrive strongly as an ethnic group. This conclusion is reinforced when one considers the grand personal successes of individual Jews from Saul of Tarsus to Albert Einstein. Clearly Jews do not lack native potential, but anti-Semitism and other factors hold them back.

Consider also that the culture of modern Jewry is a response to persecution, hardly a normal state of things for most of the rest of us.

In effect, by promoting Jewish culture as a model, you are recommending that we follow the prescriptions of a hunted, bullied people, an ethnic group in long-term decline (despite its recent very modest growth in numbers). You want to adopt a failing model (though, admittedly, only one aspect of it).

That was my point, and it stands despite the fact that you found a statistic that disagreed with mine. If the disagreement had been by a factor of ten or so, it would have invalidated my argument. But it hasn’t.

By the way, the world Jewish population in 1939, (its historical peak), was only about 17 million or 0.8% of the world’s population. Though you might find a web site somewhere that says it was 19 million.

I find it shocking that the above is happening in one country, how about you?

I am not in the least shocked. Compared to other examples of Man’s inhumanity to Man (such as, for example, the hideous persecution of Jews by Christians over two thousand years), this is a bagatelle. As I said earlier, a good sentencing judge can solve the problem. I find your professions of outrage bemusing.