The 9/11 Conspiracies Forum is a Mess. And it’s The Fault of Many Members

a reply to: Azureblue

When it goes on for page, after page, after page, after page...you see where I'm going with this?

It gets burdensome after about the second page.

When we're required to spend so much time, multiple mods, in one forum, the rest are neglected. So we can't spend as much time as is necessary there. When we come back? those pages and pages I mentioned earlier...

What we want is really very simple.

Agree or disagree with each other all you want. That's a discussion...or argument, if you prefer. That's great.

But when names begin to get tossed around? Or baseless accusations? That's where we draw the line. You know this. You may not know that there aren't very many of us, and we can't catch everything. Those posts that we don't catch are probably the ones that drive members away from the forum, members who might have something interesting to offer, but who aren't interested in being treated like an enemy.

a reply to: Azureblue

The issue seems to be one of volume and an unwillingness of people to alert mods to poor standards of decorum and civility, probably owing to the tendency for protagonists from both sides to behave in near identical fashion toward one another, aside from the difference in polarity in their arguments.

It is understandable, yet also disappointing, that a person is less likely to report poor conduct on the part of one member, if they themselves could be considered to have transgressed in a similar fashion.

This creates a backlog of ill feeling, poorly approached posts, and a huge plethora of work to be done that the Mods cannot possibly begin to do, without the help of the membership. Think about the sheer volume of posts, in ALL the 9/11 threads over the last two years alone. I believe the term fantastically numerous, would fit here. To sift that lot is the work of thousands, not a few, and yet by not reporting poor conduct, the membership make that work impossibly slow.

I see where the ownership and management are coming from here.

The problem I've noticed when it comes to 9/11 threads is the blatant argument baiting done by some people with the sole purpose of getting a rise out of the OP or anyone who agrees with the OP... which inevitably leads to hostility and derails the thread.

It's quite ingenious actually, since the mods cannot figure out whats taking place.

You shut down 9/11 because 'trolls'?

You're cutting off all our noses to spite their faces.

Disgust.

AGAIN!

a reply to: SkepticOverlord

so im gonna toss my 2 pennys in now because i think you may have gone a little to far with this post .i think this scroll i got across the bottom of my page describes it better



not "many " but a "few"

i have been browsing 9/11 for many years and it seems to me there are maybe 20-30 posters on the forum that are truly regulars be they on the OS or truther side of the coin.

the problem is that when a new person comes here wanting to learn they are often confronted by one or more of these posters and baited with cries of "ignorance" or "deny ignorance" and these are baits.

is calling someone "ignorant" or told to "deny ignorance" (implying a poster is ignorant) any better or worse then cries of "shill" or "OSer" or "truther"?

i wanted to supply some examples but unfortunately i cant because of this thread.

so... you say

This forum has turned into an inordinate strain on our staff, and that strain stops now.

but then we are asked to use the alert button at ,what seems like, the slightest insinuation of off topic and (lesser) name calling. so that every mention of "shill" (as an example you can insert ignorant here too) needs to be alerted .

i think you are making this hard on yourself . let the people scream shill or ignorant as long as no

abusive, libelous, defamatory, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist

comments are made and people dont

harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

then just let it go. you need to relax these definitions not make them more strict
like "shilling" someone is that really " abusive, libelous, defamatory, hateful, intolerant, bigoted and/or racist "?
i dont think so and i dont think calling someone ignorant falls into that category either
nor do i think it is harassment, threatening, or attacking
now i do think there is a lot of

15h.) Spamming: You will not Post identical content, or snippets of identical content, to multiple threads

like when certain posters only post from certain sites and repost these same points time and time again.

where am i going with this?

relax

and im tired maybe ill make more sense tomorrow.

P.S i think if you were to implement so kind of feature like this so that people wouldnt have to wade through pages and pages of bickering to find an answer or a reply to a certain post they are interested in it might cut down on the fighting.

a reply to: FlySolo

I see you've missed my point...

a reply to: Another_Nut

I agree, and it feels like the people who are instigating the arguments are the fastest to hit the Alert button when they successfully get a rise out of another member and it turns hostile.

It reminds me of the Great Accuser in a biblical sense, the guy who uses sneaky underhanded tactics to tempt you into sinning then turns around and accuses you to God about it. But obviously in this context "God" would be the mods with the power to shut people down.

The 9/11 topic is a mess.

Most people know something is wrong, but not sure exactly what it is. There is a growing mountain of discussion, debate, ideas and research going on. I get Mr Skeptic Overlords position as there is a growing case of information over load going on. All the different stories, innuendo, rumors and red hearings is just part of the ploy to help protect the real criminals.

There is more than enough evidence to put Dick Cheyenne on trial for things like war crimes, treason and significant other concerns. The situation is a mess and the people are getting mad or afraid. The 9/11 topic is brewing just under the surface in these next presidential debates. Can the media pull off an AboveTopSecret trick and just shut of the debate before it gets too personal?

I did find my participation in the 9/11 forum as a very difficult and challenging time with the personal and technical ignorance, I am glad such a place existed to help with understanding the situation and I do feel at though I have grown a lot through it. As for where things go next, i have no idea. But if there is a growing trend of public anger building out there for this, then maybe the tide is turning.

So many things changed that day, it is hard to not get passionate about it. Is the light at the end of this tunnel just another illusion or can we really make things better? Maybe, maybe not. If there is any chance then having a good quality discussion about the facts is a good start.

a reply to: Another_Nut

It's a lot easier for us to deal with an alert, at the time, than it is to clean up the fallout later when we notice it, and a bunch of people have responded to it.

oddly enough, my favorite part of this forum is the 9/11 section. I've both contributed a good amount to discussions and learned a lot i don't believe i'd be privy to otherwise.

all things considered, i think it's interesting to see the back and forth leading to mods having to take action like this. it's certainly telling, both in how sensitive many still are about the event, and how relevant it still is to virtually every recent political discussion we have today.

mods, i think we simply need an efficient way to mediate a discussion when it gets out of control. in my mind there's no blanket rule you can impose that will stop ignorant people from saying ignorant things, so it looks like the only real solution is some form of routine monitoring and declaration of standards.

not sure what your resources are lookin' like, but it seems as if a 9/11 forum officer might not be a bad idea! i think at this point we all can agree the 9/11 section requires a special kind of sensitivity and composure. maybe it's a naive idea, but settling disputes here might just be as simple as making it evident that there is a specific, constantly active mod designated to inform users of proper etiquette and take action if necessary.

whatever the resolve is, i hope you ladies and gents figure it out soon! some of us were on to something and need sources recited

I think the 9/11 topic is dead anyway.

It always end with one side, "building 7, smoking gun, controlled demolition" and the other side fighting that claim, and that's where the name calling starts.

Same # every time and a waste of time..

a reply to: Another_Nut

Yeah, I'm much closer to your position than the OP.

Yes the 911 forum is more than a mess, it's a joke. It is impossible to have an intelligent conversation for various reasons, one of those reason being identified in the OP.

Yet, there are obvious trolls from both sides and the OP only quoted truthers calling shills shills or perceived shills a shill. There's a particular poster who skirts T&C so well using slightly on-topic points to crash any and all 911 threads I've ever seen by forcing the discussion into a circular argument. This behavior goes unchecked. As mentioned above the use of ATS motto is very laughable and is a stain on ATS. Very much in need of a non-slanderous motto IMO.

I appreciate the acknowledgment of a disarray forum and wish you the best in getting it under control. Having said that, seeing how the OP only addresses a cursory issue, your stated goals might fall flat.

The real problem is that ATS is no longer a conspiracy forum, it has become a debunking forum. It's great and all to demand proof, and argue what you know to be the truth, and get to the facts, but it has gotten to the point where people do it with a snotty, arrogant, 'I know everything' tone... and all it does is piss people off.

Gone are the days where someone can discuss a crazy theory until that discussion starts to uncover supportive facts, and the theory starts to become known as a fact. Now on ATS, if anyone has a theory it gets shot down by a group of people in such a way that you look silly if you continue to entertain the idea of it. It's like some people don't recall what has happened in the past. They don't recall how something seemingly true and supported turned out to be a huge lie and conspiracy. But that doesn't stop them from going to every topic and regurgitating the same "true and supported" ideas that can easily all be an illusion.

---

Here is a conspiracy for you... Maybe ATSers are more awake and aware than you think, and they are detecting or picking up on something. Maybe there is something to this 9/11 conspiracy, maybe there are bots or agents or shills (along side actual people who share the same opinion) that are here to do nothing but elevate discussion into a fight, just to get them banned, or the topic closed. After all, it worked, and here we are. This topic becomes a supporting fact.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Or limit the posts a poster can make in a thread with exceptions to the OP. You can make your argument clear in 20 posts. When you just repeat yourself for 15 pages to drown out dissent is what needs to end a dis by and large the most frustrating aspect of the 911 forum.

Or maybe just don't moderate it.
Make sure ATS notifies everyone that it is a none moderated forum and let the insanity begin...be a good experiment anyhow.
But yeah no one likes being called a shill...well I was quite proud when I was .

Honestly, this type of behaviour permeates throughout the entire website. It's one reason why i don't post as much as i used to. The quality of members and content has drastically decreased since i joined, and it sucks.

At the end of the day, i think this problem falls on the shoulders of members and staff alike. Members should uphold the terms and conditions and maintain an adequate standard of decorum. Moderators and staff should be more stringent in moderating violations by all parties. People may have complained about the strict moderating in the past, but there is no doubt it went a long way in maintaining a sense of quality which wasn't found in many other corners of the internet.

I don't think the moderating is as good as it once was, and i definitely don't think the members are upholding adequate values as they once were either. I'm not a fan of zealous or harsh moderation, but i do believe more stringent measures should be taken to improve the quality of this site. While i understand that resources are limited and the moderators are already overworked, i think it wouldn't hurt to have more experienced members jump in the role and help out. I would gladly put my hand up if it meant this site could start ridding itself of the type of behaviour as discussed in the opening post.

It is probably a good time that the forum took a breather. I have tried to engage in 911 discussions a few times. I have beliefs on both sides of the coin, so I am not on either side. I would answer someone and present some research I had found or different engineers talking about this or that- and I would immediately be viciously attacked. In the name-calling way described. One side may have been more acidic, slightly, but I won't say which. Though it is a topic that interests me a great deal, I ceased posting in them. This is a long time coming. Nice call from ATS staff.

On top of that, often the same videos and expert opinions get posted and picked apart over and over and over again. If this topic repoens, there should be a note to 'search harder' first or for newer members to browse a bit first as the search function sometimes will not produce what you are seeking.

a reply to: daaskapital

I agree wholeheartedly! I would gladly accept a slight uptick in my own admonishments from moderators if it would help clean things up. Although frustrating at times to have a thought out response censored (sometimes even irrationally) the decorum and intellectual debates were better back than.

I would also be willing to offer my services if that is the pleasure of ATS.

originally posted by: boymonkey74
Or maybe just don't moderate it.
Make sure ATS notifies everyone that it is a none moderated forum and let the insanity begin...be a good experiment anyhow.
But yeah no one likes being called a shill...well I was quite proud when I was

.

NO NO NO. No non moderated lol.

I wish I had been there when someone called you a shill, I would have fallen off my chair laughing.

I did get called a troll recently. I was quite shocked.