Erdogan cites Hitler's Germany as effective executive presidency

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke


May I ask you what is your view about the fate the Shiites or all other muslim that don't agree with you and are thus - as of you - takfirs ? Something in the like of the Kurds of the Armenians ... nothing to see here, move along.

My view is simple ; I don't judge them . There is a freedom is worship and they are free to worship in what they believe .
Kurds vote for governing AKP party by and large . They are first class citizens like all other 34 non Turkic minorities in Turkey.

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke

I don't. You're the one after the ignorance of others ...

You do realize that this is not a frowned upon behaviour on ATS ?

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke


Why didn't you try to comment the articles I linked as well.
Are they too MSM for a conspiracy site or too Turkish ?
The very first link I shared happened to be published originally by the huffingtonpost. The article was then taken over by sputniknews and then echoed by theuglytruth.
Wish to comment it now ?
Feel free to provide a better comment than beating a dead horse. Actually, I'm driving down the nail.

Ok , I'll bite ; your argument is a day late and a dollar short argument . Erdogan is getting negative coverage from right , left , centre as well as the underground and alternative media platforms .
This should give you a clue and raise alarm bells but you just seem happy to regurgitate it .
Legally & Lawfully speaking , there is nothing that I can't do in Turkey that I could do in Europe .

Erdogan & Turks are receiving negative & bias coverage . This is nothing unusual and expected , really . I mean you do realize how ridiculous to expect a fair coverage of Turkish Affairs in the West ?

1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it.

Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?” [Gurun, File, p. 37]

This was written in 1922 and you & I are still having the same style of Dialog . I dare say that you have a built-in bias which feels natural and colourless to you .

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke

What is worrying me about Turket atm, is that people are being in trouble for posting pictures like this one on social media.

If there is no law preventing caricature, on which basis is this done then ?

It is done under the Law Of Torts . What you are confusing is the fact that Erdogan personally has to take someone to court and sue them . Which is a Right of every citizen .
When it comes to Defamation of Character , would you also not sue ?
If someone depicted you as a child molester ; should you be able to sue them ?

We are no ttalking about pictures of Gollum per se here ; we are talking about Character Defamation and it is punishable by Law .
Again , Erdogan acts totally within the Law yet everyone thinks Erdogan passed a special Law to punish those oppose him.
This is a clear manipulation of information indeed .

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke

I'd be curious to hear your insider's point of view about Turkish things like, the Caliph's palace, his relations with the Jaafaris, the Kurds, the Dönmehs, the grey wolves ... as a starter.

Caliph's Palace ; You must understand that Caliphate was/is a Legal & Lawfull entity which was accepted as such by even Papacy . If you read the LAW concerning the Status Of Caliphate than you would read that the Power of Caliphate is in safekeeping with Turkish Parliament since 1920's .
Law is rather clear about this issue .

Caliph's Palace has no importance in the grand scheme of things . So I give no thought to it ; I am sure somewhere suitable would be found.

Caliph's relations with Shia is something that needs improving but in the past there were times which peacefull relations existed between Sunni & Shia .

Caliphs relation with Kurds is good because Caliph already has maps from past that depicts Kurdistan as legal entity .

Donmeh's are Erdogan's opponents and they get no special favour anymore and that pisses them off to no end . However from their own past they also know that under Sharia & Sultan , Donmeh also thrived too .

Greywolves have almost all 34 non Turkic minorities as members too . They are in a minority [ % 15 - 20 ] of electorate and have no decisive power on their own .

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
a reply to: DJW001

Sure I don't speak proper English and worse, my spell-checker is playing against me sometimes ...
Now just another question for clarification if you don't mind - and 23432 should give his input as well of course - :

If you reckon that the resolution of the current middle-east situation may take place through the emergence of a Caliph-like individual; do you then consider that the current situation in the middle-east matches the pattern described in Islamic eschatology ?

Or in other words :
Doom porn ?

Yes it does .

Just a prelimary statement, I'm not against the Turks or Turkey, I'm after Erdogan. An individual who - as the OP mentions - just did a Freudian slip about Hitlerian 'values'.

originally posted by: 23432

My view is simple ; I don't judge them . There is a freedom is worship and they are free to worship in what they believe .
Kurds vote for governing AKP party by and large . They are first class citizens like all other 34 non Turkic minorities in Turkey.

Don't you realise what's going on in the Diyarbakir province as we exchange our views ?

The events in Sinark, Silopi, Diyarbakir, ...

Police state being put in place against minorities that are - as of every totalitarian rhetoric - labelled as terrorists.

originally posted by: 23432
Ok , I'll bite ; your argument is a day late and a dollar short argument . Erdogan is getting negative coverage from right , left , centre as well as the underground and alternative media platforms .
This should give you a clue and raise alarm bells but you just seem happy to regurgitate it .
Legally & Lawfully speaking , there is nothing that I can't do in Turkey that I could do in Europe .

Post a mocking picture without ending up in jail ...
Report objectively embarrassing things about Erdogan ...
Who is the telling the truth when everybody reports negatively about Erdogan ?

originally posted by: 23432
Erdogan & Turks are receiving negative & bias coverage . This is nothing unusual and expected , really . I mean you do realize how ridiculous to expect a fair coverage of Turkish Affairs in the West ?

That's why I brought mainly Turkish sources. Even the Harvard article that you considered as biased was penned by someone from Turkish origin.

originally posted by: 23432
1922 Sultan Mohammed Vl put it quite succinctly and pointedly, when he told the American writer E. Alexander Powell:

“If we sent one, your newspapers and periodicals would not publish an article written by a Turk, if they published it, your people would not read it, if they read it, they would not believe it.

Even if we sent a qualified person to America, to convey to you in your language, the Turkish point of view, would he find an impartial audience?” [Gurun, File, p. 37]

This was written in 1922 and you & I are still having the same style of Dialog . I dare say that you have a built-in bias which feels natural and colourless to you .

When the dialogue takes shape of : 'sh... up and do what the Sultan tells you to', it is pointless.

originally posted by: 23432
It is done under the Law Of Torts . What you are confusing is the fact that Erdogan personally has to take someone to court and sue them . Which is a Right of every citizen .
When it comes to Defamation of Character , would you also not sue ?
If someone depicted you as a child molester ; should you be able to sue them ?

We are no talking about pictures of Gollum per se here ; we are talking about Character Defamation and it is punishable by Law .
Again , Erdogan acts totally within the Law yet everyone thinks Erdogan passed a special Law to punish those oppose him.
This is a clear manipulation of information indeed .

Defamation is the production of false statements, fabrication of facts in order to discredit someone or an institution.
Erdogan is irritated by his own sight in a mirror.
It is a copy/paste of existing - non-photoshopped - pictures of Erdogan next to a fictional character. Like this one :


No one got into trouble for that in Belgium.
(Frankly Majesty, that blue pullover ...)

originally posted by: 23432
Caliph's Palace ; You must understand that Caliphate was/is a Legal & Lawfull entity which was accepted as such by even Papacy . If you read the LAW concerning the Status Of Caliphate than you would read that the Power of Caliphate is in safekeeping with Turkish Parliament since 1920's .
Law is rather clear about this issue .

Caliph's Palace has no importance in the grand scheme of things . So I give no thought to it ; I am sure somewhere suitable would be found.

Here is your Caliph's Palace :

originally posted by: 23432
Caliph's relations with Shia is something that needs improving but in the past there were times which peacefull relations existed between Sunni & Shia .

The statements of Caliph Erdogan are clearly contradictory on the topic.
And, practically, his stance towards the Jaafaris tend to be negative.

originally posted by: 23432
Caliphs relation with Kurds is good because Caliph already has maps from past that depicts Kurdistan as legal entity .

Do I really need to provide more examples about the current situation in Kurdish regions ?

originally posted by: 23432
Donmeh's are Erdogan's opponents and they get no special favour anymore and that pisses them off to no end . However from their own past they also know that under Sharia & Sultan , Donmeh also thrived too .

Conspiracy stuff goes by suggesting that Erdogan is himself a crypto-jewish Donmeh ...
And that there's always been going one in the highest spheres of Turkish power since Ataturk ...
But that's conspiracy stuff ...

originally posted by: 23432
Greywolves have almost all 34 non Turkic minorities as members too . They are in a minority [ % 15 - 20 ] of electorate and have no decisive power on their own .

Just a reminder : they are a terror group, officially #1 suspect in the latest bombing terror attacks in Bangkok against a shrine. Just a bias ...

Is a witch hunt underway against Turkish intellectuals?

A petition signed by 1,128 Turkish academics and supported by scores of world-class intellectuals ranging from Noam Chomsky to Immanuel Wallerstein and Etienne Balibar has exposed the prevailing nationalistic and jingoistic frenzy in Turkey. But much more important than that, it indicated that the authoritarian drift of the Turkish regime is moving into a stage of totalitarianism that reminds one of passages from George Orwell’s "1984."

...

Erdogan said the academics who signed the petition were “shadowy” instead of being “enlightened,” and to him, those “so-called intellectuals” were merely tools of propaganda of the “terrorist” Kurdistan Workers Party. What they had committed was “treachery.”

The next day, Sedat Peker, a crime boss who was imprisoned for several years for organized crime connections, showed solidarity with the president and announced that “the bloods of those so-called intellectuals will be spilled,” and that he would be “delighted to take a shower with their blood.”

...

This is a kind of “civil war” between the president, staunchly nationalist body politics and segments of Turkish society with its liberal, leftist, progressive intellectuals and with hundreds — if not thousands — of academics from every field and of every age.

Turkey has never lived such an episode before. Therefore, it is impossible to know how long this “civil war” will last and how it will end.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Is a witch hunt underway against Turkish intellectuals?

Only Turkish intellectuals who disagree with Erdogan.

Deleted by User.

a reply to: DJW001

Not only Turkish intellectuals, Turkish and foreign journalists as well :

How foreign journalists become 'spies' in Turkey

Clearly, the situation reflects a disastrous deterioration in the state of press freedom in Turkey. Still, Erdogan, who has sued scores of journalists, argues the opposite.

But have the risks of journalism increased under Erdogan? They have.

Are foreign journalists threatened in organized campaigns by AKP trolls? They are.

Are some of those threats serious? They are.

Have the police offered protection to some reporters? They have.

Have journalists faced detentions and intimidation? They have.

Is everybody concerned about Turkey’s direction? Yes.

In short, their beloved Istanbul has begun to choke foreign reporters.

Another example is Frederike Geerdink.



Building an autocratic narrative in Turkey by criminalizing truth speaking

This time it is the Turkish Maritime Affairs and Communications Minister Binali Yıldırım who has referred to Hitler's Germany as an example of a presidential regime in a unitary state :

Erdoğan'dan sonra Binali Yıldırım'dan da 'Hitler Almanyası' açıklaması

After Erdogan, minister Binali Yildirim also endorses Hitler's Germany

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Erdogan is behaving like Putin; I told you they were made for each other! Eventually, Putin will square off against Iran and suck up to Turkey again; Turkey controls access to the Med and Russia and Iran are competing for petroleum sales and a sphere of influence in Central Asia.

a reply to: DJW001

Erdogan behave like Erdogan.
Putin like Putin.
They are not made for each other.

Let us know when Putin f... up Russia and push it at the edge of civil war like Erdogan does with Turkey at the moment; or when he starts cheering Hitler.

originally posted by: DJW001
Russia and Iran are competing

As long as you base your 'predictions' on erroneous statements, you are likely to be wrong.

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke

originally posted by: DJW001
Russia and Iran are competing

As long as you base your 'predictions' on erroneous statements, you are likely to be wrong.

So you think Russia welcomes the coming glut of oil and gas? The sanctions on Iran are being lifted. If you thought the Russian economy was doing well before, just wait until no-one needs to buy Russian gas at all.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Let us know when Putin f... up Russia and push it at the edge of civil war like Erdogan does with Turkey at the moment

Give it time.

or when he starts cheering Hitler

He doesn't want to cheer Hitler; he wants people to cheer him as though he were Hitler:

a reply to: DJW001

originally posted by: DJW001

Give it time.

originally posted by: DJW001
Give him time.

That's what you already said 6 months ago ... and Putin in the meantime did everything but prove you right.
The question remains pending from six months ago : how long are we supposed to wait ?

originally posted by: DJW001
He doesn't want to cheer Hitler; he wants people to cheer him as though he were Hitler

Political popularity has nothing to do with Fascism, it is about how the results achieved by one politician's policies is welcomed among his population/electorate.
Every POTUS is filling stadiums during the electoral campaigns, just like the Nazis ...
Claiming that all POTUS are nazis because of that is not just false, it is ridiculous.
And only primitive anti-Russian hate can explain the fact that you feel the need to constantly mention Putin in a thread about Erdogan cheering Hitler.

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

Political popularity has nothing to do with Fascism, it is about how the results achieved by one politician's policies is welcomed among his population/electorate.

[

Wrong; it is about whether the person in power has achieved and retained that power. Fascism is not necessarily a bad thing. The "Little Tigers" of Asia achieved their economic progress through Fascism. Russia has become a consumer culture through Fascism. Right now, you admire Fascism because the majority of Russia's citizens are content with it. The problem with Fascism is that the concentration of power in the hands of a few people who are isolated from the public makes them inflexible. Their first response to a crisis is to shift blame rather than to seek a solution. Venezuela's economy is failing not because command economies don't work, but because of Yankee sabotage, right? Similarly, Russia's contracting economy is not due to poor economic planning and endemic corruption, it is due to NATO, somehow. Eventually the people will feel that their social contract with the Fascist government has been broken. Giving a pilot who died in another country's civil war a flashy funeral will not be enough to mollify the public. As I've said give it time....

originally posted by: DJW001
So you think Russia welcomes the coming glut of oil and gas? The sanctions on Iran are being lifted. If you thought the Russian economy was doing well before, just wait until no-one needs to buy Russian gas at all.

It is not much the fact that Iran will be able to sell more oil that is driving the market down, Saudis tried to play the low oil card price to harm Russia even before the Iran deal got penned, but they brought all the industries that relies on a higher-priced oil on their knees instead.
Russia has lower oil income sources, but that's not as problematic as you would like to.
The fact that Iran should be regaining access to its massive frozen assets is a bigger factor of economic destabilisation. Will they ever retrieve their assets or will they be awarded some junk-bonds that should be paid back later is another question.

originally posted by: DJW001

Wrong; it is about whether the person in power has achieved and retained that power. Fascism is not necessarily a bad thing. The "Little Tigers" of Asia achieved their economic progress through Fascism. Russia has become a consumer culture through Fascism. Right now, you admire Fascism because the majority of Russia's citizens are content with it.

I don't admire fascism, YOU just said it was not a bad thing.
And Putin is not a fascist, Erdogan is cheering Hitler.

originally posted by: DJW001
The problem with Fascism is that the concentration of power in the hands of a few people who are isolated from the public makes them inflexible. Their first response to a crisis is to shift blame rather than to seek a solution.

That's when you are NOT in a fascist state : you don't 'shift blame', you look for real culprits.
Given that the authoritarian leader is NOT responsible for everything.

originally posted by: DJW001
Venezuela's economy is failing not because command economies don't work, but because of Yankee sabotage, right?

Somehow but not completely ... the low oil price and the ambient mess are key factors too.

originally posted by: DJW001
Similarly, Russia's contracting economy is not due to poor economic planning and endemic corruption, it is due to NATO, somehow. Eventually the people will feel that their social contract with the Fascist government has been broken. Giving a pilot who died in another country's civil war a flashy funeral will not be enough to mollify the public. As I've said give it time....

Are you trying to be sarcastic, or are you just ignoring that the typical Russian issues you describe are actually more universal than you'd like to consider.

Back in 2014, Turkish CHP politician and businessman Umut Oran draw an interesting parralel between Erdogan and Hitlerian policies.



They have comparable perspective on education, womans, child policies, free coal to 'convince' the electors, state of nation, democracy, civil society and freedom of speech ...

And about the separation of powers :

All five Turkish prosecutors in weapons truck probes dismissed from profession

Turkey’s top judicial body has decided to dismiss five prosecutors who were involved in investigations of trucks filled with weapons going to Syria belonging to the Turkish intelligence agency in January of last year. The Supreme Board of Judges and Prosecutors (HSYK) announced on Thursday its decision to dismiss former Prosecutor Süleyman Bağrıyanık, former Deputy Prosecutor Ahmet Karaca and former Prosecutors Aziz Takçı, Özcan Şişman, Yaşar Kavalcıklıoğlu from their posts.

...

President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, who was prime minister at the time, claimed immediately after the interception of the trucks became public that the vehicles were carrying aid supplies to Turkmens in Syria.

Many high-level Turkish officials, including then-President Abdullah Gül, said immediately after the trucks had been intercepted that the trucks’ cargo was a “state secret,” which led some to speculate that the trucks were carrying arms.

President Erdoğan recently unwittingly validated claims made by critics that the Turkish government was sending weapon-filled trucks to radical groups in Syria by sarcastically asking, “So what if the MİT trucks were filled with weapons?”

Erdoğan blamed the prosecutors investigating the MİT trucks for denying the Turkmens in northern Syria the ability to defend themselves. “Those (MİT) trucks were taking aid to the Bayır-Bucak Turkmens. Some said, ‘Prime Minister Erdoğan said there were no weapons inside those trucks.’ So what if there were?”

a reply to: theultimatebelgianjoke

I don't admire fascism, YOU just said it was not a bad thing.

I understand that when someone is as twisted with hatred as you are, the mind automatically twists others' words. I did not say "Fascism was not a bad thing," I said "Fascism is not necessarily a bad thing, and provided an example of how Fascism has helped improve Russia's economy. Do you believe that Putin has improved Russia? If you do, then you must acknowledge that Fascism can be beneficial under certain circumstances. I then immediately pointed out why it invariably fails, so that even if Fascism can get positive results, it is ultimately not good, if only on pragmatic grounds. I emphasize pragmatic because some people do not recognize human rights or legitimacy through democratic institutions; in fact, rejection of universal human rights and suffrage is a defining characteristic of Fascism.

And Putin is not a fascist, Erdogan is cheering Hitler.

Russia has a central government that directly controls key sectors of the economy while permitting private capital to operate within its direction. This is a characteristic of Fascism. It has invested a single charismatic individual with absolute executive power unchecked by any democratically determined institution. This is a characteristic of Fascism. Any failure of the State is blamed on outside forces. Fascism. It places the needs of the State above the rights of its citizens. Fascism. The State absolutely controls all media. Fascism. Trials in absentia. Fascism. For further reading:

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Yes, Erdogan certainly admires Hitler. That is one reason I do not approve of him, just as I do not approve of Putin. I reject authoritarianism, of which they are both guilty. I fail to understand why you reject one Hitler wannabe while passionately embracing the other. Why are you so passionately in love with Putin that you insist on defending him even at the risk of taking a thread off topic?

That's when you are NOT in a fascist state : you don't 'shift blame', you look for real culprits.

Wow. So Hitler was right? The Jews were to blame for Germany's hyper-inflation?

Given that the authoritarian leader is NOT responsible for everything.

The authoritarian leader makes the decisions that determine the course of the economy and society. If he makes an error, and the economy or society suffers, it undermines his authority. It therefore becomes necessary to blame outside forces; the Jews, NATO, etc. Why are you defending authoritarianism?

Somehow but not completely ... the low oil price and the ambient mess are key factors too.

Venezuela's economy was in a shambles even when oil prices were riding high. The command economy made certain things unprofitable, leading to shortages.

Are you trying to be sarcastic, or are you just ignoring that the typical Russian issues you describe are actually more universal than you'd like to consider.

And therein lies the strength of liberal democracy over totalitarianism. In a liberal democracy, the electorate can vote the government out and replace it with one that is more competent. In a totalitarian state, this is not an option. If the situation gets bad enough, there are popular uprisings. The way to maintain stability is then through a coup. Turkey has regularly had coups, and Putin came to power through a counter-coup. If his circle of ex-KGB men, unreformed Stalinist generals, and gangster oligarchs decide that the people are getting restless, Mr. Putin will be asked to retire, and a new charismatic leader put before the public for their approval and adoration.

But, to steer this back on track: the Turks have never really understood what was so bad about Nazi Germany. They were allied with Germany in WWI, have practiced genocide themselves, and have no particular love of Jews. Erdogan is a product of this background, and, indeed, it is one of the sources of his popularity among certain sectors of the population.

a reply to: DJW001

You fine-tune your rhetoric in favour of fascism the way you want ... no need to justify yourself.
You should try Dudeism, it about shouting 'Fascist' at everyone's face while sipping white Russians. Additional ritual include playing Bowling and smoking weed. That's in your chords.

And as I said earlier - thank you for proving me right - :

originally posted by: theultimatebelgianjoke
And only primitive anti-Russian hate can explain the fact that you feel the need to constantly mention Putin in a thread about Erdogan cheering Hitler.

You defend fascism, I defend authoritarianism.
Why ? Because you can consider politics without fascism, but you can't consider leadership without authority.