Patriotism.

Sorry to start the New Year with a concept that the deeper one delves into, the more confusing, contradictory and down right frustrating it becomes.

I generally don't pre-compose or heavily think out my threads. More like a dash-board light keeps coming on, then off, then on again, over a period of time and finally lift the hood and take a look...mentally, speaking.

Patriotism. A category where the concept of greater than self, more important than self resides.

Sub-categories: Honor, Duty, Integrity..... Many have lived their lives by these. many wouldn't feel life was even worthwhile without them.

Emotion based?. Intellectually based? Both?

Along with Religion, the most inspiring, motivating and...manipulated groups one could name. Some blindly devotional, others, often over time, less blind...more aware and questioning. Some lose that inspiration, some hang onto it for dear life.

Sticking to the Patriotic aspect, our education, some call it indoctrination, I heavily disagree with that view, combined with the emotional tugs, Flag, Anthem, national pride, added up to a strength, a certainty of self and group that gave rise to a commonality amongst those that otherwise might heavily disagree with each other. Left-right, Conservative-liberal, artist-ironworker.

Some point to patriotism as literally evil. To others? Those lacking Honor, Integrity were/are accorded a status of sheep. Self-indulgent, dilettantes.

These days? The education of the ideals seem to be no longer stressed. Constitution, Bill of Rights. Morals. All less and less pointed out.
Patriotism slowly reduced to the emotional side. More questioned and even looked down upon by the millennials (?).

I need to learn a bit more about this. Help please...

"I think I'm one of the most patriotic people that I've ever encountered in America. I consider myself a bedrock patriot. I participate very actively in local politics, because my voice might be worthwhile. I participate in a meaningful way - not by donations; I work at it."

- Dr. Hunter S. Thompson, Gonzo Journalist

a reply to: nwtrucker

Imo, those are all noble precepts been hijacked to malignant purpose.

You can say a lion loves its prey, dutifully kills many weaker prey animals, and honorably carries its pride to betterment of it's family.

But if you went about strangling pregnant women and eating their unborn babies, you'd be buried under the Prison.

originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: nwtrucker

Imo, those are all noble precepts been hijacked to malignant purpose.

You can say a lion loves its prey, dutifully kills many weaker prey animals, and honorably carries its pride to betterment of it's family.

But if you went about strangling pregnant women and eating their unborn babies, you'd be buried under the Prison.

I'd bet even the patriotic wouldn't disagree with that. The soldier/marine shrinks his devotion to his unit, his buddies, which preserves the ideals.

It's hard to maintain that patriotism when the nation no longer reflects the ideals one holds in esteem.

a reply to: nwtrucker

The problem is that, so far, "patriotism" has needed a scapegoat enemy to rally against. That target shifts with each generation (black folk, LGBT folk, religious minorities, etc).

Until that fundamental flaw is remedied, patriotism will remain a dangerous and ultimately unAmerican virtue.

originally posted by: woodwardjnr

Ah, so by that logic, we also don't have anything on our 'cell phones' about Native American abuse or slavery we can then knock off the guilt trip on that one as well??

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: nwtrucker

The problem is that, so far, "patriotism" has needed a scapegoat enemy to rally against. That target shifts with each generation (black folk, LGBT folk, religious minorities, etc).

Until that fundamental flaw is remedied, patriotism will remain a dangerous and ultimately unAmerican virtue.

I believe you've supplanted patriotism with war.

One needs an enemy for war, not for patriotism...at least as far as I can see.

a reply to: nwtrucker

Patriotism requires nationalism. If a global government arose on earth to which everyone's allegiance was directed somehow, it could not have patriotism without an external enemy.

I think many people confuse the term with ideologue.

The generally accepted contemporary definition is positive and is loosely 'fellow countryman'. Etymologically speaking, it has obvious paternal roots but, nobody says matriotism.

Loyalty is something else again hence the familiar "loyal patriot" which would otherwise be a tautology.

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nwtrucker

Patriotism requires nationalism. If a global government arose on earth to which everyone's allegiance was directed somehow, it could not have patriotism without an external enemy.

I think many people confuse the term with ideologue or activist.

The generally accepted contemporary definition is positive and is loosely 'fellow countryman'. Etymologically speaking, it has obvious paternal roots but, nobody says matriotism.

Loyalty is something else again hence the familiar "loyal patriot" which would otherwise be a tautology.

OK. I can see the need for nationalism to have patriotism.

It's the enemy part that I can't get a grip on.

For example, take Canada. Plenty of patriotism north of the Border. Who's their enemy? Perhaps another nation that they measure themselves against. In this case the U.S.. Not enemies however.

Plenty of proud Swiss, Aussies, et al, they don't have 'enemies', per say.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I don't see it as a negative but, there is a subtle difference between your fellow countrymen and the administrative body of a geographic region.

originally posted by: greencmp
a reply to: nwtrucker

I don't see it as a negative but, there is a subtle difference between your fellow countrymen and the administrative body of a geographic region.

Hopefully, rather more than 'subtle'...

originally posted by: nwtrucker
Patriotism

'Patriotism' (also see; 'zealotry', 'fanaticism', 'mania'...) is the name of a program insidiously inserted in susceptible citizens to make them docile and go all drooly and glassy-eyed ready to march off to commit whatever insanity that their 'handlers' demand!
It is a compliance program.
Why don't you think that you are taught how to think for yourself in government/'public' schools!

a reply to: nwtrucker

I'm sad that your thread isn't getting more attention and participation. It's a worthy topic for discussion -- at least I think so!

Patriotism, to me, is wanting and acting in the best interests of the country and her people. For us, that usually means the principles expressed in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, which are based on Natural Law. For better and worse. Unfortunately, in my opinion, many of the founding principles have been misunderstood and outright corrupted. And, as a result, many folks no longer respect the Constitution or the founding principles.

I consider myself very patriotic by my own definition... not "Rah! Rah! USA right or wrong!" But I do have a profound respect for the noble ideals and principles we were founded upon, and which once made us great. I look at our decline as a direct and proportional reaction to the decline of our respect for natural law and Constitutional principles.

originally posted by: Boadicea
a reply to: nwtrucker

I'm sad that your thread isn't getting more attention and participation. It's a worthy topic for discussion -- at least I think so!

Patriotism, to me, is wanting and acting in the best interests of the country and her people. For us, that usually means the principles expressed in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence, which are based on Natural Law. For better and worse. Unfortunately, in my opinion, many of the founding principles have been misunderstood and outright corrupted. And, as a result, many folks no longer respect the Constitution or the founding principles.

I consider myself very patriotic by my own definition... not "Rah! Rah! USA right or wrong!" But I do have a profound respect for the noble ideals and principles we were founded upon, and which once made us great. I look at our decline as a direct and proportional reaction to the decline of our respect for natural law and Constitutional principles.

I believe you've articulated how many of us feel.

I would also suggest that those beliefs actually trumped political differences to a large extent. That patriotism actually assisted in keeping the nation-and others-on an even keel.

Without that patriotism we are down to family, self-interest and individualism. Nothing wrong with those, per say, merely that they need tempering with the overall good of the group/nation.

I do not believe we will get that back.

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: nwtrucker
Patriotism

'Patriotism' (also see; 'zealotry', 'fanaticism', 'mania'...) is the name of a program insidiously inserted in susceptible citizens to make them docile and go all drooly and glassy-eyed ready to march off to commit whatever insanity that their 'handlers' demand!
It is a compliance program.
Why don't you think that you are taught how to think for yourself in government/'public' schools!

Off the top, the job of teaching one how to think for oneself is, first and foremost, a parental duty. Of course, if the parent isn't motivated along those lines, then they also aren't motivated to fix the education system that also isn't motivated to teach the kids to think for themselves.

Lately, the psychs have labelled 'non-conformity' a mental disorder...cute.

You may be right in that is has morphed into a compliance program. I believe it wasn't always the case and the current education system decries 'patriotism' and is far more a 'compliance program' than we've ever had in the past when patriotism was more the norm.

a reply to: nwtrucker

I would also suggest that those beliefs actually trumped political differences to a large extent. That patriotism actually assisted in keeping the nation-and others-on an even keel.

I think you're right. I remember as a kid telling others, "It's a free country..." and having the same said to me. We might tease and taunt and mock (or be teased and taunted and mocked) for whatever, but everyone knew and respected the other was "free" to do what they liked. We knew good people could disagree and be different. And though we might disagree, we all (mostly) agreed that it was more important to protect each other's right to disagree and be different. Not so much today. Not that we were perfect. But the spirit was (mostly) willing, though the flesh was weak.

Without that patriotism we are down to family, self-interest and individualism. Nothing wrong with those, per say, merely that they need tempering with the overall good of the group/nation.

Yes. I grew up in a large family and we were often told, "The whole is only as strong and healthy as the parts." It was sometimes a fine line, balancing the needs and wants of the individual with the needs and wants of the family, but it was do-able. I apply the same principle to the country; the whole is only as strong and healthy as the parts.

I do not believe we will get that back.

I too fear that we will not get that back... but I refuse to believe it. At least not yet. I've been encouraged by the fact that the number of independents and third party registrations continue to grow, and outnumber either registered Republicans and registered Democrats, but more recently by the strong support for Trump and Sanders. The ptw have done their best to confuse and brainwash and dumb down the masses, but folks know things aren't right and that big changes are needed... it probably won't be pretty, but I still have hope that we can right the ship. Sometimes we have to learn what NOT to do before we figure out what we MUST do. That's my hope and prayer anyway!

a reply to: Abysha

Just an afterthought on the subject.

Take the Olympics as an example.

Patriotism at it's finest. Flags waving, supporters cheering. No war. No enemies.

No, patriotism doesn't require enemies....

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: namelesss

originally posted by: nwtrucker
Patriotism

'Patriotism' (also see; 'zealotry', 'fanaticism', 'mania'...) is the name of a program insidiously inserted in susceptible citizens to make them docile and go all drooly and glassy-eyed ready to march off to commit whatever insanity that their 'handlers' demand!
It is a compliance program.
Why don't you think that you are taught how to think for yourself in government/'public' schools!

Off the top, the job of teaching one how to think for oneself is, first and foremost, a parental duty. Of course, if the parent isn't motivated along those lines, then they also aren't motivated to fix the education system that also isn't motivated to teach the kids to think for themselves.

Amen, brother!
The 'bestest', hardest job ever! *__-

But the quality of education has so fallen that the ability seems to be vanishing.
The children that cannot think are having children!
You are right!
Having raised a ball team of kids, every teacher and official knew me!
I didn't let them jam any crap into my kid's heads!
They did learn how to think!
On the other hand, parenting a child capable of thinking for himself can be quite the two edged sword!
All Blessings are mixed! *__-

Lately, the psychs have labelled 'non-conformity' a mental disorder...cute.

"What better testament to your corruption then to succeed so well in a world corrupt from the beginning!"
It is the 'non-conformists' who have brought us from the trees to sitting here typing away!

You may be right in that is has morphed into a compliance program. I believe it wasn't always the case and the current education system decries 'patriotism' and is far more a 'compliance program' than we've ever had in the past when patriotism was more the norm.

There might be another Perspective or two, equally valid, but that's mine, for the moment!

For your reading pleasure, re; education;

Doing Well v. Doing Good

uselesstree.typepad.com...

a reply to: namelesss

My daughter went to a private school, my grandchildren are home schooled.

I know where your coming from re the compliance program. Based on an incremental value system, simply put, what we had was better than what we've got.....

What we had had drawbacks....

Absolutely, kids who think for themselves are a pain in the ass. No way around it, that I've found.....