The end of the protestant heresy

a reply to: chr0naut

Moses staff was not used for divination. Moses also made no special incantations to give the staff its powers. I wasn't "magic"

Whatever...you see what you want to see..

a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

So, if we're all to just rely on our own interpretation, by just reading God's Word...how come we don't all believe the same thing? Seams like a rather inefficient, unproductive way for Christ to set up a church, doesn't it?

The Catholic Church never withheld the bible from anyone. That's a myth. Heck, as I've said a thousand times, The Catholic Church produced the bible in the first place. It was only after the invention of the printing press, that bibles became available to the masses, and it was The Church that pushed that. The Holy Bible, was the first product that Guttenburg produced.

Before that, yes, bibles were literally chained, kept under lock and key. Why? They were expensive and literally took years to produce, written by hand. VERY valuable. I don't know how old you are, but there used to be such a thing as phone booths. Inside was a phone book. They were chained to the booth. Was the phone company attempting to keep the phone book from the masses?

Inquisition? Again, a terribly misunderstood time in history. More kids are killed in abortion clinics every day, than The Inquisition killed in its hundreds of years of history. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

Your mythology of Christianity being of pagan or Roman invention is easily discounted. It doesn't hold up to even the slightest serious scrutiny. Having an open mind is great and all, as long as your brain doesn't fall out. Someday I hope you get serious about your faith, using reason. Read real sources, not science fiction.

I'll stick to what the other 2 billion Christians on earth believe.

Jesus IS God, incarnate. Mary was His mother. Ergo, Mary is the mother of God. See how easy that was?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: chr0naut

Moses staff was not used for divination. Moses also made no special incantations to give the staff its powers. I wasn't "magic"

Whatever...you see what you want to see..

Magic is the process of commanding (or attempting to command) supernatural forces.

God told Moses, each time, when and how to use his staff.

Moses did not command God by using his staff. The one instance where Moses attempted to use his staff in a way not explicitly commanded by God (he struck a rock to get water, as he had done on a previous occasion, when God had said he was to pray and water would come), caused Moses to be banned from entering the promised land (God had allowed the water to come in this instance due to the need of the people).

a reply to: Ignatian

More kids are killed in abortion clinics every day, than The Inquisition killed in its hundreds of years of history. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

But to the mother and the State they perform a legal act after arriving at a decision. What benefit did society get from the tortured confessions or conversions? I also suppose why the Catholics want unfettered breeding and the banning of contraceptives and infant baptism escapes your rational mind?

a reply to: Ignatian

You conveniently avoided showing me where Jesus set up a church...I thought lying was not very christian, again care to show me biblical sources as to the Trinity, do we dare mention Transubstantiation. But of course I dont expect you to stay on topic, you duck and weave when it suits you. BTW my brain did fall out, I'm glad it did. I reconstructed it using reason rather than blind adherence.

a reply to: TheConstruKctionofLight

"Unfettered breeding"?...."be fruitful and multiply"

"banning contraceptives"? God is God, and we are not. "Thy will be done". It's not, OUR will be done, brother.

"Infant baptism"? It's in the bible. I determine my kids name, what language he speaks, why not his faith tradition? It makes sense also. Reason-able.?

Where did Jesus set up a church? Mathew 16:18 is where.

The Trinity? It's implied, EVERYwhere in the New Testament. Want me to cite ALL of them? It would take a while, but the list is long. It requires a humble heart first. Ya know, the word "bible" isn't in the bible either. Reason-able?

Transubstantiation? Nope, that word is not in the bible either.....BUT!...."He took the bread, said the blessing, gave it to His disciples and said, THIS IS MY BODY, which will be given up for you....."

...and later, "They understood everything after eating The Bread" hmmmm

Blind adherence? That's called obedience, by the way. It's faith, but it ain't blind. It's reason-able.

There is The Light, then there is our own construction of the light. Personal interpretation is prideful...and wrong. That's in the bible....wanna know where?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

Which "official version" would that be

The bible of course...

You are surely aware that there are many translations of the Bible, and that not all agree with one another?

originally posted by: TheConstruKctionofLight
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

The religious folks of the day didn't like Jesus one bit. Religion is simply a practice of some belief or another. Faith is something else entirely.

There is sufficient evidence that the man Jesus, was a practising Jew. He never came to start a new religion or to be worshipped. You just have to read his words and see. The old Roman Pagan Empire, became the New Christianity.

He was indeed born Jewish. No dispute there. He didn't come to "start a new religion", either; He came to teach people the Truth and to die on the cross to pay for our sins. Religion wasn't the goal; salvation was. As for worship, He is God, and thus worship is His due.

Isaiah 9:6 - "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace." KJV

One verse that shows all Three Persons of God.

originally posted by: Ignatian
a reply to: LadyGreenEyes

So, if we're all to just rely on our own interpretation, by just reading God's Word...how come we don't all believe the same thing? Seams like a rather inefficient, unproductive way for Christ to set up a church, doesn't it?

The problem with that is, you have to assume that's what people are doing. It isn't. Any believer - one who accepts Jesus as God and Savior - is capable of reading the Bible and understanding what God expects him to do. For most believers, there is one church or another involved, and many of these do not teach the Bible correctly. People come to believe that what they are taught through their church is correct, even when it's pointed out that it contradicts what the Bible actually says on an issue. The Church He set up is the bod of believers in Him, not ANY one organization of ours. Not Catholic, or Baptist, or Episcopalian, or Lutheran, or Methodist, or any other. It's ALL that believe in Him and accept Him as Savior. The churches we attend here are like the local churches in the New Testament, but no one of those was the final authority. No matter what church you prefer, and I believe you are Catholic, if you have accepted Jesus then you are part of the family of God, and a fellow Christian, as far as I am concerned.

originally posted by: Ignatian
The Catholic Church never withheld the bible from anyone. That's a myth. Heck, as I've said a thousand times, The Catholic Church produced the bible in the first place. It was only after the invention of the printing press, that bibles became available to the masses, and it was The Church that pushed that. The Holy Bible, was the first product that Guttenburg produced.

It's no myth. There were times in history where that happened. It isn't happening now, but it did in the past. Te Inquisition isn't happening now, either, and I am sure most Catholics would never accept such a thing these days, but it happened before. the point there isn't to condemn anyone; it's to point out that the institution you prefer hasn't been perfect throughout history. No church (small "c") can be perfect, as we are shown in the NT books about the churches of those days. All were still filled with His people, but hey made mistakes. The same is true today. ALL of them today make mistakes as well. His Church isn't about being perfect here; it's about accepting Him, and doing the best we can, and sharing His Word, and ministering to people as they are able. Any that do this are doing alright. There are some awesome Catholic ministries. The DePaul bunch, for example, does a lot of work for the poor. There is a local Episcopal one here that has a thrift, set up to be VERY cheap, price-wise, and done as a ministry. Other churches do similar things.

However, the Council of Toulouse did indeed ban common ownership of Bibles -

Canon 1. We appoint, therefore, that the archbishops and bishops shall swear in one priest, and two or three laymen of good report, or more if they think fit, in every parish, both in and out of cities, who shall diligently, faithfully, and frequently seek out the heretics in those parishes, by searching all houses and subterranean chambers which lie under suspicion. And looking out for appendages or outbuildings, in the roofs themselves, or any other kind of hiding places, all which we direct to be destroyed. Canon 6. Directs that the house in which any heretic shall be found shall be destroyed. Canon 14. We prohibit also that the laity should be permitted to have the books of the Old or New Testament; unless anyone from motive of devotion should wish to have the Psalter or the Breviary for divine offices or the hours of the blessed Virgin; but we most strictly forbid their having any translation of these books.

link

originally posted by: Ignatian
Before that, yes, bibles were literally chained, kept under lock and key. Why? They were expensive and literally took years to produce, written by hand. VERY valuable. I don't know how old you are, but there used to be such a thing as phone booths. Inside was a phone book. They were chained to the booth. Was the phone company attempting to keep the phone book from the masses?

Plenty old enough to know about phone booths! The reason isn't about expense, as is shown above. It was about deciding that people who weren't priests must somehow be too stupid to understand the Bible. It was about controlling what people heard.

originally posted by: Ignatian
Inquisition? Again, a terribly misunderstood time in history. More kids are killed in abortion clinics every day, than The Inquisition killed in its hundreds of years of history. No need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

No doubt about that, but when the church you claim is infallible did such a thing, it lessens the claim. It shows that serious mistakes were made.

His Church, as I stated above, is all of us who believe in and accept Him. If you have done that, you are a brother as far as I am concerned. How and where we choose to worship isn't so important. We don't have to agree on every little thing. He died for our sins, and that means He will forgive the mistakes we are sure to make, in regard to worshiping Him. As long as, of course, we know and accept that He is God. Those that don't have a real problem.

We can disagree on various points without calling one another heretics, i think.

originally posted by: Ignatian
God is God, and we are not. "Thy will be done". It's not, OUR will be done, brother.

So you do not allow any medical procedure at all on your family, no drugs at all, no processed food at all....

a reply to: hellobruce

Quite the contrary. When my daughter had cancer, I thanked the LORD, for letting her live. His will was done. He worked THROUGH the skilled hands of her doctors, and through the skilled researchers who produced the drugs that saved her life.

God is Good. Thanks be to God.