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Female Amazon warrior buried 2,500 years ago in Altai Mountains was... male

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posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 07:15 PM
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So I thought I would shift gears a bit and post a more historical outlook on Trans folk as opposed to the more political themed threads I have seen.

Female Amazon was male!

I found this interesting as it shows that trans folk were amongst our most ancient ancestors and were in some cases held in high regards for their contributions to their respective communities. A warrior on top it it all, I love it she was breaking all the stereotypes you go girl.



Dually-Gifted, Dually Respected?
What we understand as transgender (in its many different forms) has been understood quite differently at various periods of time. In the earliest ages, people who were seen to bridge the genders were quite often thought to possess wisdom that traditionally-gendered people did not, and were venerated for this. As civilizations transformed from matrilineal and communal societies into male-driven (patriarchal) societies with rigid class divisions and emphasis on property ownership, those male-driven cultures reduced the status of women... and because they were threatened by a persistent belief that those who blurred gender lines possessed some greater insight, they set out to crush gender-transgressive people most of all. Into the modern age, transfolk resurfaced, but it is a long climb back just to restore any sense of equality.

Read more at www.bilerico.com...


Here is an interesting link with some pretty detailed information on Trans folk throughout history. Trans people and history

I know the most closed mined of us will not bother but it's not really for them anyway. I hope someone reads and enjoys the information provided.

edit on 28-12-2015 by RainbowPhoenix because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-12-2015 by RainbowPhoenix because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 07:20 PM
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a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Perhaps it was a misunderstanding on the reconstruction that make the anthropologist think that it was female.



posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 07:39 PM
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originally posted by: marg6043
a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Perhaps it was a misunderstanding on the reconstruction that make the anthropologist think that it was female.







No, they gendered her as a woman because of the obvious signs. If she had a penis, that means she was a gender non-conforming person. She is hardly a unique case. Transgender folks have been around and recorded since recorded history (think cuneiform tablets).

There's no reason to doubt that she lived as a woman and also had a penis.



posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 07:43 PM
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I was under the impression that one could use the size of the pelvis to determine whether a skeleton belonged to a man or woman. But, as I was reading through some of the comments, I noted that one poster indicated that because the teenager was only 14 or 15, that particular technique is somewhat unreliable.

Apparently the skeleton was also found to have been clothed in male clothing, but the archaeologists attributed this to the androgynous nature of the Amazon warrior class. So there were indications that this person may have been male, but they came to certain conclusions that fit their preconceived idea that this was who they expected it to be.

Now having said that, I believe the effeminate features of the facial reconstruction, and other stated indicators, that this person may have functioned in a female role. But the molecular DNA indicated XY due to her being intersexed. So, this does still fit in with the transgender narrative.

I also seem to recall that both Native Americans and Indians had a "third gender" that was well integrated into their society without the prejudices that have arisen in more modern times. Whether their "transgenderness" was related to being intersexed or some other genetic influence remains to be seen.

-dex



posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 07:44 PM
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The body was either Male or Female.

No one was alive when this person was around to assign Genders, which i doubt existed at that point in time. Even if the mindset within an individual existed it was probably classified as mental illness or demon possession whatever reasons they used in the past.

Someone made a mistake.



posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 07:50 PM
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I also seem to recall that both Native Americans and Indians had a "third gender" that was well integrated into their society without the prejudices that have arisen in more modern times. Whether their "transgenderness" was related to being intersexed or some other genetic influence remains to be seen.



Right you are and I think there is plenty of evidence that suggest that in earlier times Trans folk were not feared or hated as much as they are today. The article outlines the timeline of the progression of sentiment towards Trans folk and people seem to fear/resent them more and more as we move closer to the modern age. It feels as though we may be coming back around full circle slowly but better late than never.



a reply to: DexterRiley

edit on 28-12-2015 by RainbowPhoenix because: (no reason given)

edit on 28-12-2015 by RainbowPhoenix because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 08:12 PM
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Sure there were cross dressing warriors in ancient times check out the below.
NONNUS, DIONYSIACA 14

In the morning, the god went forth to war, driving before him the violence of the black men, that he might free the neck of the Lycians and those who dwelt in Phrygia and Ascania from the yoke of cruel tyranny. Then Bacchos sent two heralds to give proclamation of war, either to fight or to fly: and with them went goatfoot Pan, his long-haired beard shadowing his whole-chest.

At the mouth of the Astacid lake many a son of India was cut up by the steel of the Curetes. The warriors surrounded the battalions of the foe with blow for blow, and imitated the rhythms of the armour-dance in the wheeling movements of their feet. Leneus broke off a crested peak from a mountain, and lifting this in his hairy hand, he cast the jagged mass among the enemy: the Bacchant yelled in triumph, the Bassarid cast her vinewreathed point, the heads of many men in that blackskin crowd were brought down by the womanish thyrsus. Eupetale was ready, and pierced a bold man with her deadly shaft, then let fly her pointed ivy covered with vineleaves to smash the steal. Stesichore with her bunches of grapes skipt into the mellay, and shooed off a tribe of enemies with manbreaking bullroarer, waving a brazen pair of loudclashing cymbals.
www.theoi.com...



posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 08:33 PM
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originally posted by: RainbowPhoenix
So I thought I would shift gears a bit and post a more historical outlook on Trans folk as opposed to the more political themed threads I have seen.

Female Amazon was male!

I found this interesting as it shows that trans folk were amongst our most ancient ancestors and were in some cases held in high regards for their contributions to their respective communities. A warrior on top it it all, I love it she was breaking all the stereotypes you go girl.



Dually-Gifted, Dually Respected?
What we understand as transgender (in its many different forms) has been understood quite differently at various periods of time. In the earliest ages, people who were seen to bridge the genders were quite often thought to possess wisdom that traditionally-gendered people did not, and were venerated for this. As civilizations transformed from matrilineal and communal societies into male-driven (patriarchal) societies with rigid class divisions and emphasis on property ownership, those male-driven cultures reduced the status of women... and because they were threatened by a persistent belief that those who blurred gender lines possessed some greater insight, they set out to crush gender-transgressive people most of all. Into the modern age, transfolk resurfaced, but it is a long climb back just to restore any sense of equality.

Read more at www.bilerico.com...


Here is an interesting link with some pretty detailed information on Trans folk throughout history. Trans people and history

I know the most closed mined of us will not bother but it's not really for them anyway. I hope someone reads and enjoys the information provided.


It's interesting as history, star & flag for the post. Ultimately though, I don't give a crap about how they felt about transgendered people in the past. History is full of bad decisions. I'm sure there's a great deal of history that looks on it unfavorably.

I'm fine with transgendered people and I don't need history to tell me it's the right way to feel. I think a great deal of the uproar over transgender issues involve people that are either wrapped up in religious dogma or insecure about their own sexual identity.



posted on Dec, 28 2015 @ 09:09 PM
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a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

my kids like to use clay and draw pictures as well, hooray for science
edit on 28-12-2015 by DOCHOLIDAZE1 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:53 AM
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a reply to: luciddream
Gender separation has been been around since the Neandrathals...To think otherwise is to deny history....and reality...



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:55 AM
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a reply to: odinsway
All mammals have gender separation I do believe.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 10:47 AM
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The reality of this situation is that anyone can speculate about ancient history, but no one truly knows.

The musculature of the face is likely not up for debate, but the necessity of interpretation of the the skin color and expression is a matter of conjecture.

We cannot know how big the lips were or what color they were. The same is true for the nose..

The interpretation of these sculptures is subjective and, therefore, unreliable.
edit on 12/29/15 by 123143 because: BLOODY AUTO-CORRECT.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:08 PM
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Thank you for your expert opinion, literally what did that add to the conversation other than your opinion that nobody knows what they are talking about. Are you even really interested in the subject from a historical standpoint or are trying to dismiss the whole ancient Trans phenomenon in general. I've seen your replies in other threads and it is quite obvious you have an axe to pick with Trans folk in general.



a reply to: 123143



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:23 PM
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a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

Have you seen the reconstructions of Tutankhamen? Ramses II? Tamerlane?

Even the sculptors admit these busts are speculative.



I've seen your replies in other threads and it is quite obvious you have an axe to pick with Trans folk in general.


I've also seen your replies in other threads and it is quite obvious you have an agenda.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:39 PM
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If you read the article you would have seen that the reconstruction of the face had nothing to do with the determination. Physical characteristics show a male upon closer investigation while certain ornamental objects and burial practices indicate a female. Starting to see the picture now? Go find another bridge to live under.

a reply to: 123143



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:43 PM
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a reply to: RainbowPhoenix

I'm attacking the argument. You are attacking the poster.

Nothing concrete can be said about history no matter how badly we want things to reflect our own beliefs.

I have not said I am right. I have said that these busts are speculative, subjective, guesses.

Please refrain from personal attacks.
edit on 12/29/15 by 123143 because: BLOODY AUTO-CORRECT.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:54 PM
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I'll do you one better and refrain from responding to you all together henceforth. I also find it amusing that you are quick to come in and thrash a thread but then just as quick to cry victim. I'm not attacking you rather simply pointing out that you have an agenda just as much as I do it would seem well that and you seem to be a particularly sensitive individual therefore I apologize for hurting your feelings.

a reply to: 123143



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:59 PM
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I have re-read the article. I stand by my assertions.

These busts are speculative.
edit on 12/29/15 by 123143 because: BLOODY AUTO-CORRECT.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 01:08 PM
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originally posted by: 123143
I have re-read the article. I stand by my assertions.

These busts are speculative.


So you want to reduce this entire scientifically historical based article down to a scientifically reconstructed bust by claiming it's only a representation of what the actual person looked like -- but not 100% accurate.

Is that right?



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 01:21 PM
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I don't see how transgender even fits into this whole thing. At All.

They mis identified the sex of a buried teenager and used the belongings of the decedent to guess at it's gender. They guessed wrong due to cultural biases. That's all.

Nobody is talking about it being a transgender warrior.

The second link you posted basically rewrites the latest findings in a color of what it want to see.



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