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Ancient DNA sheds light on Irish Origins

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posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 07:06 AM
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originally posted by: beansidheThe Cruithne could have been the Scandanavians though - there's some thought that the Picts came from Denmark. There was a grave of a Pict unearthed not that long ago, I'll need to find that story. The legend was that he was a great Pict, and when his DNA was tested he was Danish.

Pictish Dna has been revealed to be Celt,

So you have attested scientifically

Cruthin - proto Celt - Fir Bolg
Picts/Celt - Northern Europe - Tuatha De Danaan
Milesians - Spain
Gaels - Scythia - Nemed

That just leaves the original inhabitants after the ice age, the Cessair who migrated out and then back again becoming the Partholón, that's the 6 imo

edit on 29-12-2015 by Marduk because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 08:43 AM
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a reply to: Marduk

For the Picts we have the Caledonii, the Maetae, Epidii and Damnoni, the Catti, Cornave, Careni, Taexali, the Venicones and Verturiones and probably some others too.
I reckon that some of these groups were the descendants of the circle builders, Maes Howe etc. The Caledonii were said to be fair haired, so possibly of Northern heritage. The others probably Celts and proto Celts.

The Celts were the Tuatha, yes I agree, I think that's likely. The Milesians were from Spain, and Spain agrees with us, the Gaels do seem to have been from Scythia after all which is very exciting.

The Cruithne and the Picts seem to be interwoven, although not in every source; proto-Celt seems likely.
The Fir Bolg are odd ones, I'll need to go and get some books out because I have never been able to hold an image of them in my head. They're pre-Tuatha, so they must be connected to the Cruithne somehow.

I'll do some some Fir Bolg reading and get back to you on that one.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 10:19 AM
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a reply to: beansidhe
Merry x mas beansidhe,
I am glad you picked up that story, yesterday I was going to msg you a link to dienekes' blog discussion on it, but you beat me to it.


this work basically proves that the "black irish" really have nothing to do with the 16th century failed Spanish invasion.


DNA analysis of the Neolithic woman from Ballynahatty, near Belfast, reveals that she was most similar to modern people from Spain and Sardinia. But her ancestors ultimately came to Europe from the Middle East, where agriculture was invented.


This paragraph re-enforces the notion, that the search for metals brought people to Ireland, from Iberia very early on.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 10:38 AM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

Merry Christmas P!

Thanks for thinking of me - I literally squeaked with glee when I read this article.

Very early on indeed, from Iberia just as we are told. The Spanish know this too, but also they are dismissed as folk tales.

Here's Breogan's statue, a Milesian, at a Coruna, Spain.



Breogan

The bronze age Scythians was quite a find too, and shows the dynamic relationship between the islands and mainland Europe. Ireland was a vibrant place to be in the Bronze Age, I've no doubt, and not some misty backwater as we would be told.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 10:53 AM
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a reply to: beansidhe
Bean,
Here is a link to a paper on bronze age northern Europe, im sure you will find interesting.
www.dropbox.com...



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 10:54 AM
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DNA analysis of the Neolithic woman from Ballynahatty, near Belfast, reveals that she was most similar to modern people from Spain and Sardinia. But her ancestors ultimately came to Europe from the Middle East, where agriculture was invented.


Good Grief don't tell me this kind of stuff.

Makes me somehow think I am related to 'terrorists'.

Irhsh,Native American now middle Eastern!

I am REALLY thinking about doing one of the DNA testing sites to see what I really am.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 10:54 AM
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I am so utterly lost trying to follow beansidhe and Marduk.

Too many Europeans to keep track of. Is there a link of a timeline that can provide a visualization? Thanks in advance.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 11:09 AM
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a reply to: mirthfull

ANother reason for keeping only oral histories was to keep it from the hands of others outside the tribe.
This would ensure the purity of the message being retained.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 11:10 AM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

Thank you punkinworks, I'm going to get onto that as soon as I find my Firbolg stuff. Big hugs to you this season.

Bxxxx



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 11:12 AM
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a reply to: beansidhe

Long before the Vikings used the Volga to raid deep in to Russia the Scythians probably sailed Northward and out to the British Isles in search of trade.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 11:27 AM
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a reply to: neo96



Are you sure you want to know? Anyway, failte cousin, to the convoluted world of your ancestors.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

Oh no, I'm sorry. It's really flipping complicated and the chronolgies don't help me much when you start to look at it from an historic perspective rather than a mythological one.
I'll look for something visual for you, but in a nutshell (mythology):

The first 'invasion' was Cessair, and he brought Alba, Finn etc round about the time of the flood.
Then came Partholon, who slaughters the Formorians, but they all die of plague.
This leaves the Formorians to battle the Nemedians, who come around 20 years later.
Next is the Fir Bolg, with their bags of clay.
Then come the Tuatha de Danaan, the fairy folk.
Lastly the Milesians arrive and drive the Tuatha underground. What they actually said was 'we'll share the land with you - we'll live on it and you can live below it!' ie they slaughtered them. That's my interpretation anyway, of why the Tuatha are linked with the sidhe and the otherworld.

The Cruithne are also written about in Ireland and seem related to the Scottish Picts somehow (as opposed to the Dal Riadans who came later), as the Picts are often called the cruithne in texts.

Let me try and find something visual.

edit on 29-12-2015 by beansidhe because: sp



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 11:36 AM
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originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Boadicea

I'm fascinated by it too. I'm thinking of Goidel Glas, the father of the Gaels, and son of Nel and Scotia who travelled from Egypt, to Spain and then on to Ireland.

I'd wondered if Goidel Glas' story wasn't meant to have encapsulated the movement of a people rather than a man, and his story was just a way of remembering the main parts. There was a notion in there that he was related to Japheth, son of Noah, if I remember?


I have speculated as much myself! Just as history can be exagerated, so it can also be simplified, eh? I was first introduced to the Tuatha Dé Danann, and from there found the Lebor Gabála Érenn, and was already familiar with the Biblical accounts of an Exodus, and I've been fascinated ever since. There's a rhyme there that rings true...

I've already read ahead a little here... I wish I could contribute more with some profound wisdom, instead I'll just enjoy the contributions of everyone else!



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 11:41 AM
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a reply to: Byrd

I'm embarassed to say that although I had heard the term "British Israelism," I didn't realize it was an actual movement. D'oh!

I'm not so sure it's all made up though... and even if it is, it's still an intriguing scenario and a great story



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 11:52 AM
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originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: neo96



Are you sure you want to know? Anyway, failte cousin, to the convoluted world of your ancestors.

a reply to: Rosinitiate

The first 'invasion' was Cessair, and he brought Alba, Finn etc round about the time of the flood.
Then came Partholon, who slaughters the Formorians, but they all die of plague.
This leaves the Formorians to battle the Nemedians, who come around 20 years later.
Next is the Fir Bolg, with their bags of clay.
Then come the Tuatha de Danaan, the fairy folk.
Lastly the Milesians arrive and drive the Tuatha underground. What they actually said was 'we'll share the land with you - we'll live on it and you can live below it!' ie they slaughtered them. That's my interpretation anyway, of why the Tuatha are linked with the sidhe and the otherworld.


That helped a little.





Let me try and find something visual.


Thanks! So just to be clear, this mythology is isolated to Ireland? Shared on some level with the Scott's?

I wish there was a tree branch diagram that encompassed not just Irish or even European, but something that could show the mythologies of each individual culture in parallel. With so many, it's hard telling who is descendant from who and what their belief system was and how that correlates to another cultures belief system at or around the same time.

Very overwhelming, but than again, it was never my focus of study although it intrigues me to no end.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:02 PM
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a reply to: Rosinitiate

It's extremely complicated because there are also Pictish king lists and the writings of Nennius the Welsh monk to take into account.
Yes, this is just for Ireland really - Scotland is missing this part of its history. We have to rely on the Irish books, and these have nearly all been dismissed as myth. It's confusing and there is no real agreement as to where the Cruithne fit in - or who they were.

a reply to: Asktheanimals

The Balkan Celts may have had a part to play too.


a reply to: Boadicea

The Goidel Glas story is always connected to language - the tower of Babel, how he brought gaelic over; he took the best bits of all the others and formed the perfect language - goidelic! It is a metaphor for something, for sure.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:17 PM
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Here is Fenius' family tree, which might help a bit:





Here is (roughly) what we know:


edit on 29-12-2015 by beansidhe because: add



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 12:21 PM
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a reply to: Asktheanimals

The histories were kept by experts outside tribal or clan influence, at least toward the end. bards, druids, brehon, I'm sure they were called other names but feats of perfect memorisation needed years of training.

The law system was based on obligations and responsibility, so everyone needed to know there were impartial parties to settle disputes.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 01:07 PM
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originally posted by: Rosinitiate

Thanks! So just to be clear, this mythology is isolated to Ireland? Shared on some level with the Scott's?


Just to add to your confusion, it probably applies to most of Northern Europe before the Romans, who pushed out the Celtic tribes north and west. Celtic is a misnomer, there was a tribe called the celtoi but each tribe had their own names, dialects, customs and so on.

Mostly, Ireland's are being discussed here but, being on the edge of the world, this may be due to the Irish folklore surviving long enough to be written down, in the same way we gather most of our information on Viking society from Icelandic sagas which survived until writing became the norm.

In Ireland, there was a complex interaction between Gaelic Christianity and the clans which led to the mythology being recorded in a slightly Christianised way. In any case, there was lots of movement along the western European seaboard and some sense of a shared culture so it's hard to be sure what's uniquely gealic and what's pan-celtic.

Modern country names are a misleading, They arise from the middle age kingdom consolidations onward. In the middle ages, there was a clan from northern Ireland called the scoti which took over the highlands and Islands of north Scotland, giving their name to the country., but they were Irish and the languages of Ireland and Scotland are pretty much the same to this day.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 03:14 PM
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a reply to: Marduk

As a note of interest, Nennius (you can download the Historia Brittonum at the first link given ) only lists three takings of Ireland:

p7 S13 - Long after this, the Scots arrived in Ireland from Spain. The first that came was Partholomus, with a thousand men and women; these increased to four thousand; but a mortality coming suddenly upon them they all perished in one week. The second was Nimech, the son of ..., last of all came one Hoctor.

He gives Partholon, Nimech/Nemed and Hoctor (Milesian).

Neither Fir Bolg nor Formorian mentioned. Nennius wrote this around 828 AD, so earlier than the Lebor Gabala Erenn.

A couple of theories from a quick read-


The name may be based on, and cognate with, Belgae.[5] The Belgae were a group of tribes living in northern Gaul. Some have suggested that the writers merely named a fictional race, the Fir Bolg, after a real group, the Belgae.

Others, such as T. F. O'Rahilly, suggest that the Fir Bolg, Fir Domnann and Fir Gáilióin were real peoples who arrived in Ireland in ancient times. He proposed that the Fir Bolg were linked to the historical Belgae, the Fir Domnann were the historical Dumnonii and the Fir Gáilióin were the Laigin.[9]

Another suggestion, put forward by John Rhys and R. A. Stewart Macalister, is that the Fir Bolg are the Fomorians (Fomoire) under another guise.[10]


Fir Bolg wiki

I'm going with O'Rahilly for now. The Fir Bolg were already there, perhaps from a neolithic wave of incomers. Cruithne? Potentially....



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 03:15 PM
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a reply to: mirthfull

Cheers for that, mirthfull! The more you get into it, the more complicated it gets.



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