BREAKING: Grand jury declines to indict Cleveland policemen in fatal shooting of 12-year-old Tamir R

a reply to: Phibes

When you stop putting words in my mouth and ascribing lines of thought to me that I've never espoused, we can have an actual grown-up discussion.

Till then, ta-ta

originally posted by: Echo007
I blame this on the way police are trained in America. Any threat they pull out a gun and fire. If this happened in the UK, that kid would still be alive. The officer was a moron for driving up to the kid and shooting within 2 seconds. They should of stayed back, used the car PA system to tell the kid to put the gun down.

You're right, the officer was a moron for driving up to the kid the way he did.

Except that officer isn't the one that wound up shooting him. Which even a cursory glance at the video would've clued you in to.

originally posted by: Shamrock6
a reply to: Phibes

When you stop putting words in my mouth and ascribing lines of thought to me that I've never espoused, we can have an actual grown-up discussion.

Till then, ta-ta

Please then take your own advice and stop putting words into other mouths. And also please read the whole persons post's before picking and choosing nitpicking parts of a post. That way you can "grow up" tar tar...

I love getting the last word. proves i am right!

a reply to: Phibes

OK, so I have noticed lots of bickering, arm chair police work, and misinformation since I have last posted. Not pointing anyone out just replying to your post because you will not have the last word.

Lets look at the facts and timeline shall we? I will lay it out as it was known or unknown and in the order of events.

1. A juvenile is in a public park menacing with what may or may not be a toy gun.
2. A concerned citizen calls the police and mentions that the person may or may no be a juvenile menacing with what may or may not be a toy gun.
3. Dispatch contacts a patrol and dispatches them to the park, dispatch only mentions certainties and withhold uncertainties. (I will add my opinion about this later)
4. The officers arrive and see a black male of undetermined age with what appears to be a gun on the picnic table.
5. Black male sees the officers in route and places the weapon in his waistband.
6. The officers approach the black male in their vehicle and encounter ice causing the vehicle to slide close to the area.
7. The officer driving the vehicle exits the vehicle and points his weapon at the black male.
8. Black male reaches for his waistband where the weapon was just placed.
9. Officer reacts and fires two shots, one shot strikes the black male.
10. Both officers fail to render aid not knowing what to do, a responding FBI agent renders first aid minutes later.
11. A grand jury finds no wrong doing and the officers are cleared as pursuant to US law.

Regarding dispatch, I don't think they like to muddy the waters with what may be or might not be. My reasoning is that they don't want to pollute the decision making process of the officers as they are in route. Many may disagree with me on this but I would like to hear a dispatchers opinion in the matter.

Lastly, lets discuss the facts. Not who is cowardly or who is at fault. Lets discuss the facts please.

In the mean time lets enjoy this song by Slim Jesus, notice the props he uses in the video.

WARNING, GRAPHIC LANGUAGE AND SITUATIONS IN THE VIDEO.

WARNING, GRAPHIC LANGUAGE AND SITUATIONS IN THE VIDEO.

a reply to: BIGPoJo

When should you shoot someone that has a gun?

You do this, you call for back up, you take the time to make an assessment, you get your bull horn and tell the kid to drop the weapon, the Fking doughnuts can wait what's the hurry.
And I have reason to believe the prosecutor as with the case in Ferguson threw the case.

a reply to: BIGPoJo

Nice copulation. Besides, no body gets the Last word on ReadLeaders thread....except ReadLeader. ....

Sarc/ but again. Nice work BigPo.

10. Both officers realize the weapon is in fact a toy and render first aid.

Based on reporting, that's neither assisted.

The FBI agent who rendered first aid to Tamir Rice minutes after a Cleveland police officer shot the 12-year-old boy later told investigators that the officers on scene "wanted to do something, but they didn't know what to do." The agent, who is trained as a paramedic, said he took charge of assisting the boy

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
Regarding dispatch, I don't think they like to muddy the waters with what may be or might not be. My reasoning is that they don't want to pollute the decision making process of the officers as they are in route. Many may disagree with me on this but I would like to hear a dispatchers opinion in the matter.

Disagree with this portion. I don't believe a person in a dispatch call center is in any position to filter out information given by an eyewitness. Filtering out information given by a caller is what muddys the waters and did so in this case.

I am sure the dispatcher would deny any wrongdoing, so I am not interested in their take on that personally.

originally posted by: roadgravel

10. Both officers realize the weapon is in fact a toy and render first aid.

Based on reporting, that's neither assisted.

The FBI agent who rendered first aid to Tamir Rice minutes after a Cleveland police officer shot the 12-year-old boy later told investigators that the officers on scene "wanted to do something, but they didn't know what to do." The agent, who is trained as a paramedic, said he took charge of assisting the boy

That is correct, thanks for refreshing my memory, I will update the post with the facts.

originally posted by: Spider879
a reply to: BIGPoJo

When should you shoot someone that has a gun?

You do this, you call for back up, you take the time to make an assessment, you get your bull horn and tell the kid to drop the weapon, the Fking doughnuts can wait what's the hurry.
And I have reason to believe the prosecutor as with the case in Ferguson threw the case.

Apples and oranges. The kid was menacing with what looked like a real gun in the park where kids play which is a crime. This man was holding his weapon in a legal manner on his shoulder without menacing, he did not break the law. Charges were dropped and was considered a wrongful arrest.

originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
Regarding dispatch, I don't think they like to muddy the waters with what may be or might not be. My reasoning is that they don't want to pollute the decision making process of the officers as they are in route. Many may disagree with me on this but I would like to hear a dispatchers opinion in the matter.

Disagree with this portion. I don't believe a person in a dispatch call center is in any position to filter out information given by an eyewitness. Filtering out information given by a caller is what muddys the waters and did so in this case.

I am sure the dispatcher would deny any wrongdoing, so I am not interested in their take on that personally.

I would love an ATS member that has worked as a police dispatcher give us their input. Lastly, I would love to see all the documentation regarding the proceedings to see what the findings were regarding the dispatching in this case.

First aid training as a result.

First-aid training for Cleveland police officers was "accelerated" after the officers involved in the Tamir Rice shooting had no first-aid supplies on hand and did not tend to the boy's wounds, Mayor Frank Jackson said.

The city was already considering emergency first aid training for its officers, but hurried to train them after the November 2014 shooting of the 12-year-old boy, Jackson said Wednesday.

Now, all Cleveland police cars are stocked with trauma kits that have life-saving materials, including gauze designed for officers to use to stop heavy bleeding while they wait for paramedics.

Jackson spoke to reporters Wednesday at City Hall about the progress the city has made one year after signing an agreement with the U.S. Department of Justice that compels the police department to make sweeping reforms.

Emergency first-aid training is one condition of the binding agreement. Officers who injure a person using any type of force must "provide emergency first aid until professional medical care providers are on scene," according to the decree.

Link

a reply to: BIGPoJo

Apples and oranges. The kid was menacing with what looked like a real gun in the park where kids play which is a crime. This man was holding his weapon in a legal manner on his shoulder without menacing, he did not break the law. Charges were dropped and was considered a wrongful arrest.

Yeah apples and oranges in terms of outcome, what didn't happen was death in seconds upon arrival from what looked to me of a drunken old belligerent .

a reply to: BIGPoJo

Well we probably won't see the documentation. But imagine someone calling in a possible break-in in their neighborhood. They think it could actually be the homeowner but aren't certain.

That would be great information to pass on to responding officers. It should not be withheld. No one is endangered by passing on that information. The responding officer is still able to size up the situation and can keep that in mind, too.

It might even be the one piece of information that keeps them from shooting a homeowner who is accidentally locked out of their own house and spares the officer's family from a media circus and a criminal/civil investigation.

originally posted by: dragonlover12
a reply to: ReadLeader

I`m just glad the system worked...

and for full disclosure purposes , my husband is ex LEO... baby brother died "on the job" 10 years ago... and my best friends are the head dispatcher at 911 and her husband who retired as our Chief of Police a year ago.

YEAH YOU TELL EM SISTER!! SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!! /WAVES FLAG

Is it hard to see everyone from way up on that horse?

originally posted by: Bundy

originally posted by: dragonlover12
a reply to: ReadLeader

I`m just glad the system worked...

and for full disclosure purposes , my husband is ex LEO... baby brother died "on the job" 10 years ago... and my best friends are the head dispatcher at 911 and her husband who retired as our Chief of Police a year ago.

YEAH YOU TELL EM SISTER!! SUPPORT OUR TROOPS!! /WAVES FLAG

Is it hard to see everyone from way up on that horse?

The truth is policing isn't for everybody and the killer cop in question had issues way before this shooting, what I find abhorrent is grownazz people thinking this was OK action for a cop.

originally posted by: BIGPoJo
OK, so I have noticed lots of bickering, arm chair police work, and misinformation since I have last posted. Not pointing anyone out just replying to your post because you will not have the last word.

Lets look at the facts and timeline shall we? I will lay it out as it was known or unknown and in the order of events.

1. A juvenile is in a public park menacing with what may or may not be a toy gun.
2. A concerned citizen calls the police and mentions that the person may or may no be a juvenile menacing with what may or may not be a toy gun.
3. Dispatch contacts a patrol and dispatches them to the park, dispatch only mentions certainties and withhold uncertainties. (I will add my opinion about this later)
4. The officers arrive and see a black male of undetermined age with what appears to be a gun on the picnic table.
5. Black male sees the officers in route and places the weapon in his waistband.
6. The officers approach the black male in their vehicle and encounter ice causing the vehicle to slide close to the area.
7. The officer driving the vehicle exits the vehicle and points his weapon at the black male.
8. Black male reaches for his waistband where the weapon was just placed.
9. Officer reacts and fires two shots, one shot strikes the black male.
10. Both officers fail to render aid not knowing what to do, a responding FBI agent renders first aid minutes later.
11. A grand jury finds no wrong doing and the officers are cleared as pursuant to US law.

Regarding dispatch, I don't think they like to muddy the waters with what may be or might not be. My reasoning is that they don't want to pollute the decision making process of the officers as they are in route. Many may disagree with me on this but I would like to hear a dispatchers opinion in the matter.

Lastly, lets discuss the facts. Not who is cowardly or who is at fault. Lets discuss the facts please.

You should probably get your facts right.

There are also the slides released by the prosecutor here. You can find the slides linked on this page and go over them if you wish. The rate of capture appears to be 2fps; two frames per second.

#5 is wrong - Rice doesn't see the police before he leaves the table at 15:30:12. He leaves the table facing the other direction from the police car, which is stopped at a distance observing. He appears to finally notice the approaching police car at 15:30:14, while standing near a support post. He starts to move towards the road at 15:30:17 with his hands in front of his stomach, as the police car begins its off-road driving.

The vehicle is nearest him at the first 15:30:22 frame, when he stops moving towards it and begins lowering his hands. It appears both arms are at his sides, with his hands on his hips, at the last frame of 15:30:22, so #8 is fairly questionable.

#7 is wrong; in the U.S. drivers are on the left-hand side. The passenger opens the door in the last frame of 15:30:22, then exits and shoots Rice in the first frame of 15:30:23 (#9). Rice is on the ground in the second frame from 15:30:23. The driver is still in the car and does not exit until 15:30:25.

So, the kid is shot in about a second. I think Ohio is an open carry state, even? People say all sorts of # to the cops; didn't they learn that after the John Crawford shooting?

originally posted by: Greven

...

You should probably get your facts right.

...

Updating after reviewing...

Thanks for the info.

UPDATED EVENTS IN RED COLORED TEXT

1. A juvenile is in a public park menacing with what may or may not be a toy gun.
2. A concerned citizen calls the police and mentions that the person may or may no be a juvenile menacing with what may or may not be a toy gun.
3. Dispatch contacts a patrol and dispatches them to the park, dispatch only mentions certainties and withhold uncertainties. (I will add my opinion about this later)
4. The officers arrive and see a black male of undetermined age with what appears to be a gun on the picnic table.
5. Black male sees the officers in route and places the weapon in his waistband, and approaches vehicle 5 seconds before it arrives.
6. The officers approach the black male in their vehicle and encounter ice causing the vehicle to slide close to the area.
7. The officer in the passenger seat exits the vehicle and points his weapon at the black male.
8. Black male reaches for his waistband where the weapon was just placed.
9. Officer reacts and fires two shots, one shot strikes the black male, the officer that was driving then exits the vehicle.
10. Both officers fail to render aid not knowing what to do, a responding FBI agent renders first aid minutes later.
11. A grand jury finds no wrong doing and the officers are cleared as pursuant to US law.

Direct Link to Forensic PDF