The Mysteries: The First Secret Society

Originally posted by gps777
If there are any Freemasons who truly believe they are True Christians you need to get out of there

If I'm not mistaken, this thread was about the Mysteries, which predate both Freemasonry and Christianity. There seems to be a lack of relevance here.

As unpleasant as it may be, it is the obligation of the discerning Christian to point this out, both for the sake of the hundreds of thousands of Christian Masons and for those who might yet become Masons. The Masonic ritual (i.e., Masonry's ceremonial rites of initiation that all Masons must pass through) of the First, Second, and Third Degrees teach all Masons exactly what God condemns as a false gospel, namely that a person is saved and goes to heaven as a result of his or her personal character and good works.

First, you are confusing "what God says" with what Paul says. Secondly, Masonry does indeed teach that men should practice virtue and charity, but whether or not this leads to salvation is an issue of the individual's own opinion. Personally, I think practicing virtue and charity just because we want to get to heaven is the absolutely worst reason to do so. We should do these things simply because it's our duty to do them, not because we want to bribe God.

ML also called Christianity my bazaro cult,

No, I called the version of religion that you were espousing, not Christianity, a "bizarro cult". This is because you used your religion as an excuse to lie about other people. That isn't Christianity, it's conspiracy theory, and conspiracy theory is not compatible with Christianity. For evidence of this, see www.acts17-11.com...


[edit on 7-1-2005 by Masonic Light]

You have voted Masonic Light for the Way Above Top Secret award.

Superb write up Masonic Light. It's amazing what one can learn through the studies of history.

You never cease to amaze.

Originally posted by gps777
This is as close as i can find to sum up that Christ is not Lucifer for you,you cannot be a True Christian and a Mason sorry to say

www.blessedquietness.com...

Vulgate
Isa 14:12 quomodo cecidisti de caelo lucifer qui mane oriebaris corruisti in terram qui vulnerabas gentes
KJV
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Lucifer in Old Testament is Strongs number

H1966
הילל
hêylêl
hay-lale'
From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer. (being that Strongs is saying lucifer is the meaning of this word, and lucifer is latin for another term, what does lucifer mean in english? Lucifer is a combination of latin words: lux, lucis, meaning light, and fero, meaning to bring. And accordong to the orginal greek and hebrew, lucifer is used in place of halale, and phosphorus, which have been defined as morning star and day star.)

Acccording to John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
Isa 14:12 - How art thou fallen from heaven,.... This is not to be understood of the fall of Satan, and the apostate angels, from their first estate, when they were cast down from heaven to hell, though there may be an allusion to it; see Luk_10:18 but the words are a continuation of the speech of the dead to the king of Babylon, wondering at it, as a thing almost incredible, that he who seemed to be so established on the throne of his kingdom, which was his heaven, that he should be deposed or fall from it. So the destruction of the Roman Pagan emperors is signified by the casting out of the dragon and his angels from heaven, Rev_12:7 and in like manner Rome Papal, or the Romish antichrist, will fall from his heaven of outward splendour and happiness, of honour and authority, now, possessed by him:
O Lucifer, son of the morning! alluding to the star Venus, which is the phosphorus or morning star, which ushers in the light of the morning, and shows that day is at hand; by which is meant, not Satan, who is never in Scripture called Lucifer, though he was once an angel of light, and sometimes transforms himself into one, and the good angels are called morning stars, Job_38:7 and such he and his angels once were; but the king of Babylon is intended, whose royal glory and majesty, as outshining all the rest of the kings of the earth, is expressed by those names; and which perhaps were such as he took himself, or were given him by his courtiers. The Targum is,
"how art thou fallen from on high, who was shining among the sons of men, as the star Venus among the stars.''
Jarchi, as the Talmud (c), applies it to Nebuchadnezzar; though, if any particular person is pointed at, Belshazzar is rather designed, the last of the kings of Babylon. The church of Rome, in the times of the apostles, was famous for its light and knowledge; its faith was spoken of throughout all the earth; and its bishops or pastors were bright stars, in the morning of the Gospel dispensation

from Adam Clarke's Commentary on the Bible
Isa 14:12 -
O Lucifer, son of the morning - The Versions in general agree in this translation, and render הילל heilel as signifying Lucifer, Φωσφωρος, the morning star, whether Jupiter or Venus; as these are both bringers of the morning light, or morning stars, annually in their turn. And although the context speaks explicitly concerning Nebuchadnezzar, yet this has been, I know not why, applied to the chief of the fallen angels, who is most incongruously denominated Lucifer, (the bringer of light!) an epithet as common to him as those of Satan and Devil. That the Holy Spirit by his prophets should call this arch-enemy of God and man the light-bringer, would be strange indeed. But the truth is, the text speaks nothing at all concerning Satan nor his fall, nor the occasion of that fall, which many divines have with great confidence deduced from this text. O how necessary it is to understand the literal meaning of Scripture, that preposterous comments may be prevented! Besides, I doubt much whether our translation be correct. הילל heilel, which we translate Lucifer, comes from ילל yalal, yell, howl, or shriek, and should be translated, �Howl, son of the morning;� and so the Syriac has understood it; and for this meaning Michaelis contends: see his reasons in Parkhurst, under הלל halal.

and from Keil and Delitzch Commentary on the Old Testament
Lucifer, as a name given to the devil, was derived from this passage, which the fathers (and lately Stier) interpreted, without any warrant whatever, as relating to the apostasy and punishment of the angelic leaders. The appellation is a perfectly appropriate one for the king of Babel, on account of the early date of the Babylonian culture, which reached back as far as the grey twilight of primeval times, and also because of its predominant astrological character

And finally another link you might like...
www.cresourcei.org...

Here's a quote form the link that you posted.

Any alleged scholar, or any alleged saint, who KNOWS the facts here stated, and still attributes the "Morning Star" title to both Jesus Christ AND Satan-- Mark it down-- That person is a committed willful blasphemer and is damned to hell. I don't care whose name you bring up... If they filthy Jesus Christ in this way, there is no hope for them, and the sides of the Pit is their eternal and worthy destination. To hell with them.

I am not saying that Morning Star is to be applied to Jesus and Satan because lucifer (morning star in latin if you forgot) IS NOT SATAN!!!

Don't just read your Bible, Study it!!!

[edit on 1/7/2005 by cotwom]

[edit on 1/7/2005 by cotwom]

GPS777 also said

Masonary is totally opposite to which Christ instructs his people
and
www.1john57.com...

This link concerns itself with the inaccuracies of the NIV compared to the KJV.

If you notice in all my references above I used the KJV and the Latin Vulgate which came before the KJV and was partially used in the formation of the KJV.
I agree that the NIV is innacurate. However there is NO getting around the fact that when the bible says lucifer, it refers to "morning star" or "day star" which in a couple places in the New Testament, this is refered to as JESUS whoo like the morning star brings light to the world.

Now I apologize to Masonic Light and the Moderators for making this a religous discussion about Jesus, Lucifer etc...
I just felt I needed to clear that up.
Now back to original topic.

Masonic_Light is the MAN!!!

His Posts always contain Great Info & a Fantastic Point of View!

He sure does make Masonry look Good - while critics only succeed in making themselves look Real Bad!

Hey Dude did you get an ATS Award or Prize or something of this nature - yet?

you can't get awards on here, can you?

I am trying to help a friend with research on the Freemasons.

Does anyone here know where I can find information on William B. Roberts? Supposedly the Head of the Athenin Brotherhood.

His activities were supposed to involve someone named Sweeny. Also, a John O`Nell, who was a Fenian General?

I'm not as internet savey as many of you, and am having a hard time finding much information.

Originally posted by gps777
If there are any Freemasons who truly believe they are True Christians you need to get out of there

Millions of men throughout the world, including six million Americans, look to the Masonic Lodge for brotherhood and fellowship. They are proud to be part of an organization that engages itself in worthwhile causes, such as children's hospitals. Many of them feel strongly about the Masonic tenets of the Fatherhood of God, the brotherhood of man, and the immortality of the soul. Masonry (or Freemasonry) claims to be the friend of Christianity, and yet it contains doctrines that are contrary to biblical teaching. As unpleasant as it may be, it is the obligation of the discerning Christian to point this out, both for the sake of the hundreds of thousands of Christian Masons and for those who might yet become Masons. The Masonic ritual (i.e., Masonry's ceremonial rites of initiation that all Masons must pass through) of the First, Second, and Third Degrees teach all Masons exactly what God condemns as a false gospel, namely that a person is saved and goes to heaven as a result of his or her personal character and good works. As all Christians know, the Bible places such a teaching under God's curse. Paul said in Galatians 1:8&9:


�But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that we have preached to you, let him be accursed.�



The Bible clearly teaches how a man is saved:



�For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast� (Eph. 2:8-9. See also John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; Rom.3:28-29; 4:6; 11:6).

retracted the Taxil quote my appolagies

Try these then

www.cuttingedge.org...





www.geocities.com...

the other thread
www.abovetopsecret.com...
ML also called Christianity my bazaro cult,Christianity is`nt Christianity if its not scriptural you therefore cannot claim to be a True Christan whilst being a Mason.
Here`s a Mason site who agree`s with this,although calling true Christians narrow minded
Therefore to the Bible literalist, who believes all other faiths are false, the answer is most clearly No the true Christian cannot be a Freemason. However, for millions of other Christians who are more open minded with regard to their faith in Christ, their is no conflict between their religion and the fraternity.link
www.freemasoninfo.ca...

Or maybe you could use a dictionary and learn what the term "allegorical" means, Jesus used parables to teach as well.I view freemasonry as teaching certain truths through parable and allegory. If you really think that the six million freemasons believe that Hiram Abiff is their savior, or worship Baphomet or Jabulon, or believe that Hirim Abiff died for their sins, then you are foolish.Why can't you simply believe that there are good moral and ethical people trying to do good deeds in ALL religions.I may not agree with what one of my brothers do theologically, but their beliefs are their business, religious squabbling and intolerance causes a large potion of the ills in society, as do political indifferences, which is consequently why neither are allowed to be discussed in Lodge.

Originally posted by gps777
If there are any Freemasons who truly believe they are True Christians you need to get out of there

The Bible clearly teaches how a man is saved:

�For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast� (Eph. 2:8-9. See also John 3:16; 5:24; 6:47; Rom.3:28-29; 4:6; 11:6).

[edit on 7-1-2005 by gps777]

Time for PBR to break out his Gospel Gun !

Jesus talks about works a lot in the Bible.

Luke 10: 25-37

25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[a]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"

28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."

29But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30In reply Jesus said: "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35The next day he took out two silver coins[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. 'Look after him,' he said, 'and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.'

36"Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?"

37The expert in the law replied, "The one who had mercy on him."
Jesus told him, "Go and do likewise."

Clearly Jesus is saying the act of loving thy neighbor and doing works for him is the key to eternal life.

And lets not forget Ephesians 2:10
For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do

How many verses say we will be judged by our works ?
Revelation 20:12
And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.
Revelation 20:14
The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.


Seems like works are very important to Jesus. If they were not the key to eternal life why will I be thrown into the lake of fire based on my works ?





[edit on 21-5-2007 by RWPBR]

Hey Guys,

This thread is 2 years old. I don't think those people post here any more!

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Hey Guys,

This thread is 2 years old. I don't think those people post here any more!

And I won't be crying in my beer about it, either.

2 years old or not, it's still a damn good post and one that more than a few people should read in its entirety.

Those guys used to crack me up... good times.

-Axe

[edit on 5/22/07 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Masonic Light
Hey Guys,

This thread is 2 years old. I don't think those people post here any more!

It is never too late to fight ignorance with illumination !

i would have thought that a society like the Ninja would have been
prominent before any religious/mystical group gained a name for itself.

Only when there's a secure & continual social order
is there any room for such non-productive, non-essential, philosophical & magic oriented fluff to find its niche in any culture...

The first secret society is most likely the most well kept secret!