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Capitalism is not the only American way.

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posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 01:33 PM
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Hello ats, I realize this is going to be a heated topic but I feel I need to speak my mind on an issue. I am here to discuss, debate, and learn. Realize that while I have a position, any statistics or proof will not be ignored by myself, and I ask that others approach this with an open mind themselves.

I am here to argue that capitalism is not the only economic system for the USA. That we could certainly emulate, even do better than other countries when considering adopting aspects of socialism. We have amendments guaranteeing certain rights such as property ownership, and the founding fathers certainly were against a large government - but I have yet to see anything in the Constitution mentioning capitalism, and certainly not sustaining the form of crony capitalism we practice in these days, alongside a huge federal government.

Where unlimited power and riches are a possibility, unlimited corruption is a certainty.

Personally I believe in a government literally ran by the people, where public and national forums and boards and meetings exist, a system in which we are taught from a young age how to participate in political processes and taught that we shape and form our lives - not just a few men in DC.

I honestly believe you do not infringe upon the American dream when you limit the scope and corruption of corporations, when you ensure business and politics stay away from each other, when you ensure rights such as health, food, and shelter to all people willing to work and fuel the economy and be a part of this nation.

I honestly believe you are ensuring life, liberty, and happiness when you look out for everyone, and when looking out for everyone is guaranteed, not just hoped for. Hoping that a cut throat business man will look out for the "lowest" people in our society is just a justification of an economic ideology, not an actuality.

If it were an actuality, we wouldn't have more empty houses and bedrooms than we do homeless people. If it were an actuality, the richest family in the world wouldn't have a huge amount of workers on food stamps and other forms of government assistance.

I argue that it is not a right to threaten another's ability to have their health, shelter, and food - not when they are willing to work. Not when they are willing to be the most important part of any economy - the working class.

There's a lot about the current system I argue, including that you can't have your cake and eat it too. I don't believe there's some pure and true form of capitalism that could rise up and make the nation and world a better place. I don't believe that capitalism is the only American way - in fact, looking at mass psychology and economics, I argue that it inherently denies life, liberty, and happiness. When profit margins are more important than people, you will never be encouraging life, liberty, and happiness for the majority.

Why do we have so many people defending the rich class? No, we don't owe them anything for "creating jobs", we don't owe them patents that discourage a free market, we don't owe the rich anything. I'd argue that you have to be nearly sociopathic and anti altruistic to become rich these days, and these are not the people I believe should be determining the quality of life the average person has.

Anyways, I'd like to hear from others, what they have to say. Please give constructive feedback as I would actually like to see any well formed thoughts supporting or denying my post.

Happy Holidays, members!

Deadlyhope

edit on 27-12-2015 by deadlyhope because: (no reason given)



+4 more 
posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 01:43 PM
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a reply to: deadlyhope

You are defending cronyism and corporatism.

What capitalism allows is the following:

A farmer produces milk. Someone is lactose intolerant, so the milk isn't good for them. Someone else notices that and figures out how to produce milk that does not have lactose in it. They bring that to market.

The person who wants milk but cannot tolerate lactose is happy and the person who figured out how to fill that need makes money.

But ... there is someone else who does not want all the fat in milk.

Soooo, someone figures out how to produce milk with varying degrees of fat in it. Now those people are happy, and the person who figured that out makes money.

But ... there is someone who would like milk, but does not like how it exploits cows. Soooo, someone figures out how to make something very like milk out of almonds or soy or other plant-based products.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

This is what a free market allows for and what capitalism at its best does. It lets innovators figure out how to supply what people want.


edit on 27-12-2015 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 01:44 PM
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a reply to: deadlyhope

America is different than Europe or other countries. It was designed to be different and to be a place free of European style Government and economics. While we technically could emulate the systems of Europe with minor differences; I don't want us to be like Europe.

America is a place to be different and a place for misfits. I don't want to conform to what other parts of the world do and I certainly wouldn't want us to model our Government based on Socialism.

We already have an insidious creep towards Socialism in the United States and I for one would prefer we minimize or eliminate this trend.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 01:45 PM
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a reply to: deadlyhope


That we could certainly emulate, even do better than other countries when considering adopting aspects of socialism.

We already do, most people are just in denial about it. Modern cities are the biggest social engineering projects on a mega scale.

Most people who decry socialism, can't live without programs like public works, public schools, Public transit, mail delivery, police, fire…

So cry freedom and don't call the fire department the next time your house catches fire. When your car breaks down from hitting all the potholes the road workers didn't fix, you'll have to walk to work instead of taking the bus. Your kids will stay home because you can't afford privatized schools. And the cops? Forget about 911, theres no policing available.

Oh, and forget about applying for unemployment or welfare, those offices are closed.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 01:47 PM
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a reply to: Metallicus

I'm not specifically for european-styled socialism, I am, however very much against american-style capitalism/oligarchy.

Democratic libertarian, with side notes of socialism in basic things like food stamps makes more sense to me.

A nation ran for the people, by the people, where minding your own business on political issues is the main point, and making sure others are taken care of is also included.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 01:49 PM
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a reply to: intrptr

I actually believe the components of capitalism make this country worse than it could be.

We live in a technological age where the government could be more of a free-source think tank including the majority of America, so to speak. Most of the men in DC are out-dated, and not needed in this day and age.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 01:51 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

I don't see that.

I see company A patenting the way to make almond milk, raking in tons of money on royalties, and company B patenting their GMO almonds, paying off the FDA to make sure a real health study is never done on such almonds, and company B also leveraging their position to ensure their almonds are the only ones bought.

Your explanation is beyond fantasy.

I mean, I realize you were defining capitalism in essence, but the actuality has always been far different.
edit on 27-12-2015 by deadlyhope because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 02:15 PM
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a reply to: deadlyhope

Wouldn't it be nice to live in a "leave it to Beaver" world where free market capitalism actually existed.
It's almost impossible to be anything other than a wage slave unless you know how the REAL market works with world wide speculators, insiders with REAL information; Not to mention that global financial monopolies have kicked American style capitalism into corporatism with politicians working for the corps, now that they are people just like you and I.

Knowing how economies work is the first step in understanding politics. Gee Wally....Really?

Here's a little insider info.....Learn to speak Chinese.




edit on 27-12-2015 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)

edit on 27-12-2015 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 02:19 PM
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""Capitalism is not the only American way""

But it's the best way as long as we avoid the Social/Corporatist influences.




posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 02:26 PM
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a reply to: xuenchen

I argue that capitalism lead us directly to the corporatist/oligarchy country we live in. Billionaires funded the government, government legislated the corporations into being favored, and poof! We have this country we live in.

I realize the actual events and timeline and all are a lot more detailed than this, but I honestly believe capitalism leads to corruption in both business and government, and I have yet to see anyone prove differently - While I can give you exhibit A , the USA that proves my theory correct.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 02:33 PM
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originally posted by: intrptr
a reply to: deadlyhope


That we could certainly emulate, even do better than other countries when considering adopting aspects of socialism.

We already do, most people are just in denial about it. Modern cities are the biggest social engineering projects on a mega scale.

Most people who decry socialism, can't live without programs like public works, public schools, Public transit, mail delivery, police, fire…

So cry freedom and don't call the fire department the next time your house catches fire. When your car breaks down from hitting all the potholes the road workers didn't fix, you'll have to walk to work instead of taking the bus. Your kids will stay home because you can't afford privatized schools. And the cops? Forget about 911, theres no policing available.

Oh, and forget about applying for unemployment or welfare, those offices are closed.


Schools, public works, police and fire services are NOT a product of socialism.

The first organized fire brigade was under Augustus in Rome, ~2000 years before Engels or Marx were even born.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 02:34 PM
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originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: ketsuko

I don't see that.

I see company A patenting the way to make almond milk, raking in tons of money on royalties, and company B patenting their GMO almonds, paying off the FDA to make sure a real health study is never done on such almonds, and company B also leveraging their position to ensure their almonds are the only ones bought.

Your explanation is beyond fantasy.

I mean, I realize you were defining capitalism in essence, but the actuality has always been far different.


An aspect of capitalism has been different, I'd agree. But then the same is said for socialism.

No city in the U.S. is based on socialism. Now there's a delusion. They exist purely on capitalist opportunity. Ports, rail heads, ag. centers, et al.

As usual and without variation, socialism relies on and is totally dependent on capitalism for it's existence. The only other option is Communism. Even they require 'capital'.

China's gains are pure capitalism.

Socialism, rather social consciousness is part and parcel 'American'. Local projects, bridges, schools are social projects, as is police and fire departments.

When nationalized, enforcement becomes mandatory. Be it welfare, medical coverage, so on.

I'm not going to change your mind and likewise you won't be changing mine. De-nationalize it. State by state, those for it or some aspect....BY MAJORIY, can have it. Those States that do not can go without.

It is completely fair. Any that argue against it are, in my mind, proof that there is nothing 'fair' about those that promote socialism as the dominant economic/support system.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 03:50 PM
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originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: ketsuko

I don't see that.

I see company A patenting the way to make almond milk, raking in tons of money on royalties, and company B patenting their GMO almonds, paying off the FDA to make sure a real health study is never done on such almonds, and company B also leveraging their position to ensure their almonds are the only ones bought.

Your explanation is beyond fantasy.

I mean, I realize you were defining capitalism in essence, but the actuality has always been far different.


"The monopoly problem mankind has to face today is not an outgrowth of the operation of the market economy. It is a product of purposive action on the part of governments. It is not one of the evils inherent in capitalism as the demagogues trumpet. It is, on the contrary, the fruit of policies hostile to capitalism and intent upon sabotaging and destroying its operation."

-Ludwig von Mises



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 04:06 PM
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Capitalism has failed miserably at protecting our environment for future generations so I applaud your thread at suggesting alternatives. Capitalism only rewards greed and power which is no longer a viable solution going forward. Instead we need to rebuild a new society which protects our environment and the other animals we share the earth with.

We need ban usury and start building sustainable housing that doesn't require a lifetime of slavery to debt,



We need enforce locally made goods which help reduce 1/3 worlds energy and pollution used by international shipping

We need personal transport that weighs closer to bicycles not tanks.

We should be using less energy at homes which makes solar viable.

We should all be working at the most 20 hours a week if we not indebted to usury.

Of cause the rich and famous will say no to all these things as it would infringe on their private jet lifestyle.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 04:14 PM
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a reply to: greencmp

a quote from some guy I've never heard of doesn't make it true.

Billionaires bribe politicians to look the other way when breaking laws, or just make crony activity well within the law.

Politicians cater to corporations so they get a slice of the power/money pie as well.

Show me real life examples that show the contrary - Not some random quote.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 04:14 PM
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Double post.
edit on 27-12-2015 by deadlyhope because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 04:15 PM
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a reply to: glend

I agree with some of what you are saying - I just believe the first step towards any type of happy/good life is getting rid of the 100% chance of corruption economics.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 04:24 PM
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originally posted by: deadlyhope
a reply to: greencmp

a quote from some guy I've never heard of doesn't make it true.

Billionaires bribe politicians to look the other way when breaking laws, or just make crony activity well within the law.

Politicians cater to corporations so they get a slice of the power/money pie as well.

Show me real life examples that show the contrary - Not some random quote.


I have been working out how best to present the problem of monopolies and interventionism. When I do, I will put up a thread.

You should not be ashamed to have not been exposed to Mises, he is one of the most respected economists and the leading figure in praxeology. Hence, no statist educational regimen has ever included his work.



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 04:29 PM
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a reply to: deadlyhope

'getting rid of the 100% chance of corruption economics'

Its possible, the Muammar Gaddafi model was excellent, which explains why he was feared so much:

• There was no electricity bills in Libya; electricity is free … for all its citizens.
• There was no interest on loans, banks in Libya are state-owned and loans given to all its citizens at 0% interest by law.
• If a Libyan is unable to find employment after graduation, the state would pay the average salary of the profession as if he or she is employed until employment is found.
• Should Libyans want to take up a farming career, they receive farm land, a house, equipment, seed and livestock to kick start their farms –this was all for free.
• Gaddafi carried out the world’s largest irrigation project, known as the Great Man-Made River project, to make water readily available throughout the desert country.
• A home was considered a human right in Libya. (In Qaddafi’s Green Book it states: “The house is a basic need of both the individual and the family, therefore it should not be owned by others.”)
• All newlyweds in Libya would receive 60,000 Dinar (US$ 50,000 ) by the government to buy their first apartment so to help start a family.
• A portion of Libyan oil sales is or was credited directly to the bank accounts of all Libyan citizens.
• A mother who gives birth to a child would receive US $5,000.
• When a Libyan buys a car, the government would subsidizes 50% of the price.
• The price of petrol in Libya was $0.14 per liter.
• For $ 0.15, a Libyan local could purchase 40 loaves of bread.
• Education and medical treatments was all free in Libya. Libya can boast one of the finest health care systems in the Arab and African World. All people have access to doctors, hospitals, clinics and medicines, completely free of charge.
• If Libyans cannot find the education or medical facilities they need in Libya, the government would fund them to go abroad for it – not only free but they get US $2,300/month accommodation and car allowance.
• 25% of Libyans have a university degree. Before Gaddafi only 25% of Libyans were literate. Today the figure is 87%.
• Libya had no external debt and its reserves amount to $150 billion – though much of this is now frozen globally



posted on Dec, 27 2015 @ 04:32 PM
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a reply to: glend

How did all of this turn out? It sounds like it could go wrong and just create a lazy nation - But that doesn't mean my western view of things makes it true. Was Libya once a great place?




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