Illinois Resolution Seeks Seizure of Privately Owned Weapons

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
as for smokeless powder- the primary ingredient for a long time has been gun cotton or nitrocellulose. to make this you add nitrates such as is found in ammonia or even aged urine to properly prepared cellulose. needless to say i won't go into further detail but the ingredients for smokeless powder are either readily available, readily fabricatable or otherwise capable of being derived from legitimate innocuous but dual use substances available on the market.

In short; it is impossible to realistically ban the ingredients.

Your comment about "adding nitrates" is rather vague. The nitration reaction is well known and requires nitric and sulfuric acids. Acetone is usually the solvent used for extrusion of the grains. Graphite can be used to control the speed of combustion. Look up Cordite and see what the composition is. If the ingredients were provided to the average citizen, what do you think the chances of making a batch of workable nitrocellulose gunpowder would be?

not everyone needs to be able to do it to be able to render bans useless though. ideally everyone of sound mind and ethical spirit would know how though.

There is a reason the founders wanted the govt to not be able to infringe; and no matter the intent, that is what is happening right now or at least that is what these anti-gun types want. (ineffectual as their wish may be at the moment.) Because these people will not get their legislation through and even if they did the courts would kill it upon appeal.

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
as for smokeless powder- the primary ingredient for a long time has been gun cotton or nitrocellulose. to make this you add nitrates such as is found in ammonia or even aged urine to properly prepared cellulose. needless to say i won't go into further detail but the ingredients for smokeless powder are either readily available, readily fabricatable or otherwise capable of being derived from legitimate innocuous but dual use substances available on the market.

In short; it is impossible to realistically ban the ingredients.

Your comment about "adding nitrates" is rather vague. The nitration reaction is well known and requires nitric and sulfuric acids. Acetone is usually the solvent used for extrusion of the grains. Graphite can be used to control the speed of combustion. Look up Cordite and see what the composition is. If the ingredients were provided to the average citizen, what do you think the chances of making a batch of workable nitrocellulose gunpowder would be?

In part because i don't want a visit from the feds (i am pretty sure you need a licence to actually do what we are discussing) or to be put on any list that will constrain my rights. apart from that; not everyone who can make use of the knowledge is of the right mind to not abuse the knowledge for evil acts. stable law abiding people are in no danger of harming others with whatever knowledge they get. Others...not so much. if i wanted to i could go tell prisoners how to make thermite out of stuff they can find in and around their cells but i would be wrong if i did that.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: pteridine
a reply to: stormbringer1701
Note that black powder is 75% KNO3. Your link on how to make black powder recommends buying the KNO3 at a drugstore. Flints could provide the ignition, so no caps or primers would be needed. Pipes could provide a smooth-bore barrel for low pressure propellants.
While acquiring charcoal is easy and sulfur may be a little harder to do, the potassium nitrate is the most difficult. In the past, KNO3 was a prized commodity that was not readily available until the Haber process became commercial. www.amazon.com...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1451194939&sr=1-1&keywords=the+alchemy+of+a ir If Potassium Nitrate becomes controlled, fewer people yet will be able to employ firearms.
Alternatively, high pressure air rifles could be considered. Historically, they were effective in war as they left no tell-tale cloud of smoke when discharged and were the first repeating rifles as they had 20 round tubular magazines. One went on the Lewis and Clark expedition and was demonstrated to any tribes that were encountered. en.wikipedia.org...

You will need powder for a firearm.

sulphur is not a controlled substance and can be acquired in reasonable quantities for gardening or even from vitamin stores or veterinarian stores. guano contains potassium nitrates. pottassium can be obtained from wood ash if necessary due to chemically poor guano. the word potash comes from this fact. carbon is derived from charcoal but different woods yield different qualities of charcoal and some are bad for this purpose.

plus both black powder and smokeless powder are legal to buy as it is. as are primers, brass and bullet heads. in fact even a 80 percent finished fully auto gun body is legal to buy (without a CL III maker certificate) at this time.

A key phrase you used is "at this time." At this time, there is not a problem at all. In the future, there might be which is what I was addressing. I stated that carbon/charcoal was easy. Sulfur a little more difficult. Potassium nitrate was the major ingredient and could be controlled.

The separation of nitrates from guano and aged urine is an art, of sorts. Look up Petermen.

en.wikipedia.org... is a more general link regarding smokeless powder. Note that double base powders have significant amounts of nitroglycerine in them which is why I made the statement about people blowing themselves up. Nitration of alcohols to nitrate esters is temperature sensitive and can easily run away in a noisy fashion.

i wonder if you could freeze dry beets to get nitrates and if any of them would be potassium nitrate? beets are known to be loaded with nitrates...

originally posted by: pteridine
[
The separation of nitrates from guano and aged urine is an art, of sorts. Look up Petermen.

en.wikipedia.org... is a more general link regarding smokeless powder. Note that double base powders have significant amounts of nitroglycerine in them which is why I made the statement about people blowing themselves up. Nitration of alcohols to nitrate esters is temperature sensitive and can easily run away in a noisy fashion.

thanks for the petermen reference. that was interesting.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
i wonder if you could freeze dry beets to get nitrates and if any of them would be potassium nitrate? beets are known to be loaded with nitrates...

Beets are not very high on the list of nitrates. nutritionfacts.org... Believe it or not, it is arugula. You will need 5-10 pounds arugula to make an ounce of gunpowder, assuming that the nitrate can be recovered as KNO3. There is always a separation problem.

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: pteridine
[
The separation of nitrates from guano and aged urine is an art, of sorts. Look up Petermen.

en.wikipedia.org... is a more general link regarding smokeless powder. Note that double base powders have significant amounts of nitroglycerine in them which is why I made the statement about people blowing themselves up. Nitration of alcohols to nitrate esters is temperature sensitive and can easily run away in a noisy fashion.

thanks for the petermen reference. that was interesting.

I recommend this book for more info on the Petermen, nitrate wars, guano islands, and why India [the Ganges] was more important to the British Empire. www.amazon.com...

Here it is ...
capitolfax.com...

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: stormbringer1701

originally posted by: pteridine
[
The separation of nitrates from guano and aged urine is an art, of sorts. Look up Petermen.

en.wikipedia.org... is a more general link regarding smokeless powder. Note that double base powders have significant amounts of nitroglycerine in them which is why I made the statement about people blowing themselves up. Nitration of alcohols to nitrate esters is temperature sensitive and can easily run away in a noisy fashion.

thanks for the petermen reference. that was interesting.

I recommend this book for more info on the Petermen, nitrate wars, guano islands, and why India [the Ganges] was more important to the British Empire. www.amazon.com...

excellent. this is what i found googling peterman though:

www.rsc.org...

originally posted by: pteridine

originally posted by: stormbringer1701
i wonder if you could freeze dry beets to get nitrates and if any of them would be potassium nitrate? beets are known to be loaded with nitrates...

Beets are not very high on the list of nitrates. nutritionfacts.org... Believe it or not, it is arugula. You will need 5-10 pounds arugula to make an ounce of gunpowder, assuming that the nitrate can be recovered as KNO3. There is always a separation problem.

even better. beets are a unit. pick it and it's gone. and it does require some gardening skill to even grow right in most places. arugula grows like a weed and quickly, does not take any gardening prowess to keep alive and it regrows as long as you don't pick every leaf off and sometimes even if you do. and arugula can be planted in tighter spacing than beets.

originally posted by: awareness10

That's the problem though isn't it?

There seems to be a lot of American citizens out there that feel they need to own a gun to be content that they actually own a pair of testicles.

Most Aussies couldn't care less... there confident in what they're rocking, whether they own a firearm or not.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

Perhaps the mahem isn't quite as insane in Aussieland as it is in USAland eh? or the aussie testacular tolerance isn't quite as high?


And the other ones, you only mentioned this one.

This exact topic has already been before the supreme court. The 2nd amend won

I loved the debate over making black and smokeless powder.
Making black powder at home that is safe and effective is not feasible in most homes and it takes far more work than just mixing the three ingredients that were listed. (Has anyone ever searched the term 'Pinterest Fails'? People can't even pull off decorating an effing cupcake.)
Smokeless powders are usually a mix of nitrocellulose and stabilized nitroglycerin, neither of which are safe or easy to manufacture.
I have worked inside explosives manufacturing plants. The one was in operation during WWII and has a stone memorial to the many workers that died there in accidents (read explosions) during that time period.
I would not be surprised to see some state legislatures pass laws that would force shooters to install an explosives plant in their basement.

a reply to: Subaeruginosa

What about the American woman who packs?

Is she making up for a lack of testicular fortitude?

I think it's time to let go of the told attempt to shame people who believe in their right to defend themselves as feeling they are compensating for a lack of manly equipment. Not everyone who believe in a right to self defense is "compensating" as the old ad hominem slur would have you believe.

We all know that criminals follow laws and that even if one did have a gun and decided to rob a store or whatever cops show up within seconds of trouble happening. No big problem here.

a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

If you already know then my post is moot. Many people consider the National Guard to be militia and nothing else is. I got the impression you fell somewhere along that line of thinking. If I was incorrect, then well done to you for knowing the actual meaning of the word.

originally posted by: introvert
a reply to: CharlieSpeirs

I am very pro-2nd and I believe the right should be well regulated.

"Shall not be infringed" contradicts the term "regulated" and that contradiction, without proper constitutional clarification, is what has allowed states and politicians to push their own political definitions/regulations.

The 2nd needs to be amended.

How many times do we have to teach this? Regulated, in the vernacular of the F. F. meant well drilled ie ; trained, to be able to function correctly or Regularly . It doesn't mean "There should be lots of laws limiting them". That's just what regulated has come to mean in modern times. That's why the F. F. put that "shall not be infringed" bit in, to clear up any doubt what their intent was. They wanted the average citizen to be able to own and bear arms as the ultimate line of defense of the citizens, from everyone including their own government. I really don't get how people can't dissect a sentence correctly anymore.

The majority of Americans shouldn't be allowed to own a car much less a gun.