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originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: TonyS
a reply to: nonspecific
"how does carrying a loaded weapon in a shopping mall or pizza joint benifit your society? "
www.breitbart.com...
"driver was sitting in his car on Milwaukee Avenue, watching people shuffle back and forth in front of the car just before midnight. As he watched, a gunman raised a weapon and began to fire, so the driver then sprang into action.
According to the Chicago Tribune, 22-year-old Everardo Custodio allegedly “began firing into the crowd,” and the Uber driver fired back. He fired a total of “six shots at Custodio,” striking him three times and wounding him in “the shin, thigh, and lower back.” The attempted mass shooting was over and the the only injuries were to Custodio."
I don't know where you live; I'd have guessed the UK.
The situation in the US is so remarkably different than it is in the UK or Australia that it doesn't surprise me that people in those lands can't understand the US situation. Suffice it to say that the problem is at least two fold. First, no one knows or can have any idea who is circulating around them in public spaces; some are "bad guys" and they carry concealed firearms with intent to do harm and they don't care anything about "laws" regulating firearms. Second, in the US, there isn't a cop or a camera on every corner. The cops are spread very thin and essentially operate on an "on call as needed" basis. They can't "protect" the "good citizens"; and they've come to expect and will even tell you so if you ask, that protecting yourself from violent crime is the citizen's duty, not the cops simply because they can't be everywhere all the time.
Its a far different situation in the US.
As I said in the OP I am in the UK and yes I simply do not understand the need to carry a loaded handgun other than to protect myself from someone else with a loaded hand gun.
If you got a straight 10 years in prison for carring in public how many people would still carry?
That is why not many people get shot in the UK, it's not the lack of fire arms its the trouble you get in for bieng caught with one without reason.
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: greencmp
originally posted by: Krakatoa
originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
originally posted by: nonspecific
Although the information is valuable it does however relate to the illigal ownership of a firearm and not as I suggested the carring of one in public without good reason(something I know many will say is a right but just seems odd to me.
It is the same thing. Illegal possession also means carrying one in public without a permit or by not observing your state's particular carry laws.
I interpreted his question as one of why allow even legally licensed carriers the legal option to carry in public at all....anywhere.
Yes, that is the general attitude among anti self defense advocates; why should anyone be trusted to possess the ability to defend themselves?
It isn't a legal question but, a philosophical one. The conversation must eventually devolve into specific examples and hypothetical tests upon the validity of the principal of pacifism.
Should martial artists register their limbs?
Should criminals possessing martial arts abilities have their limbs surgically removed?
etc...
I could be wrong in this but I am pretty sure that if you recieve a certain level of martial arts training in the UK then you do indeed need to register yourself as your arms and legs are actually deemed leathal weapons and you may need to justify your actions in any incident that leads to violence.
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: Krakatoa
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
originally posted by: nonspecific
As I said in the OP the issue was not the owning of a gun or multiple ones but carring them in public without good reason.
You do not need a reason to exercise your rights.
This again is something I simply fail to understand, the issue of Rights.
I see this a lot for US members, I often wonder as to the way the world changed over the years.
The people that created these rights could not have forseen drug and gang culture when this "right" was given, does not law need to evolve with society?
So, I guess the pirate culture of the preceding century (17th century into the early 18th century) doesn't count in their calculus. The largest variable in their calculus was YOUR government to be honest. The British empire of King George III that attempted to tax and otherwise control (militarily even) the remote colonies. The attempt to confiscate our firearms, being forced to quarter your troops in our homes with no compensation or permission. Therefore, I am not surprised you do not understand our culture and unique history.
This isn't a slight or flippant answer, but an honest one.
It certainly is not a judgement of your culture on my part, as I said I am glad that you have the legal right to own firearms.
The question was how you would feel if you lived in a society where you were not allowed to carry one in day to day society without severe conciquences?
Basing this on the assumption your fellow citizens also adhered to this and the need for self defence with a firearm was drastically reduced.
originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: nonspecific
OK.
For most people who view firearms restrictions as "reasonable" and "necessary," they often also view voting as an absolute right to be fettered by nothing, similar to how the most fanatic of gun rights folks feel about their right to keep and bear.
So try this thought exercise:
For every restriction I think a gun owner should have to put up with, would I be OK with it's equivalent on voters before they could vote?
originally posted by: nonspecific
If you got a straight 10 years in prison for carring in public how many people would still carry?
originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: nonspecific
You've been here long enough to know already what the response would be. This is nothing new.
You knew and you did it anyway.
originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: nonspecific
You've been here long enough to know already what the response would be. This is nothing new.
You knew and you did it anyway.
originally posted by: JIMC5499
a reply to: nonspecific
Gun laws are useless. They are political grandstanding. The people that obey the gun laws are the people that you don't have to worry about in the first place. We have laws in place that cover any crime that you can commit with a gun.
As it has been stated time and time again " the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?
Permits, licenses and mental health have been brought up in these posts. My problem is who determines who gets a permit? Who sets the qualifications and determines who can have a license? Who sets the parameters that determines who has mental health issues that prevents them from owning a firearm?
When I took Psychology in college a few years ago, there was a group who believe that anybody wanting to own a firearm for self-defense had a mental health issue.
I'd have no problem with having to take training to be able carry a handgun. My problem is who defines the training? Who defines the qualifications of the people doing the training? Will the trainers be required to carry liability insurance?
This may sound extreme, but, I had an aircraft mechanic's license for almost thirty years. I could have picked-up $1000-$2000 a month doing minor maintenance on small planes, but, if I changed the oil in a plane on Tuesday and the wing fell off on Friday, I would be sued. The cost of the insurance per month would have been more than I could have made in a month. Right now groups are trying to sue gun manufacturers and sellers for crimes that were committed using legally manufactured and purchased firearms. The idea is to make firearms too expensive to be purchased.
Therefore, I am against any and all restrictions on firearm ownership and possession. It comes down to, if we give an inch the anti-gun nuts will take a mile.
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
originally posted by: nonspecific
As I said in the OP the issue was not the owning of a gun or multiple ones but carring them in public without good reason.
You do not need a reason to exercise your rights.
This again is something I simply fail to understand, the issue of Rights.
I see this a lot for US members, I often wonder as to the way the world changed over the years.
The people that created these rights could not have forseen drug and gang culture when this "right" was given, does not law need to evolve with society?
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: Ksihkehe
a reply to: nonspecific
You've been here long enough to know already what the response would be. This is nothing new.
You knew and you did it anyway.
I suppose I misunderstood the levels of violence and crime in some places in the US but given that I have never witnessed it is it not somewhat understandable?
originally posted by: Krakatoa
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
originally posted by: nonspecific
As I said in the OP the issue was not the owning of a gun or multiple ones but carring them in public without good reason.
You do not need a reason to exercise your rights.
This again is something I simply fail to understand, the issue of Rights.
I see this a lot for US members, I often wonder as to the way the world changed over the years.
The people that created these rights could not have forseen drug and gang culture when this "right" was given, does not law need to evolve with society?
Oh, I forgot to address your wild misconception on the issue of the origin of these rights. In the United States, according to our supreme laws (The United States Constitution and Bill of Rights) these rights are NOT GIVEN by the government. See, that is a common misconception by many. As it clearly states in our Declaration of Independence,
...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
In modern language, this means that we are all born with these inherent rights....they are granted by our creator (whoever that creator is for any individual, it does not specify a specific deity). Governments can only protect, i.e. secure, those rights for the people.
The Bill of rights expands and codifies the "...among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." by identifying some of them individually, like the right to keep and bear arms (the topic of this discussion). This indicates the government is supposed to protect these rights from infringement. In this particular amendment, the phrase "well regulated" means well trained (the 18th century definition of that phrase), not to impose laws to regulate (our modern definition of that word) the exercise of these rights.
I just wanted to clear up that misconception of your where you stated that when this "right" was given. In your country, perhaps the government grants your rights, and for you that might be normal. But in the United States, that is not the case, as I have explained prior.
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: Krakatoa
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
originally posted by: nonspecific
As I said in the OP the issue was not the owning of a gun or multiple ones but carring them in public without good reason.
You do not need a reason to exercise your rights.
This again is something I simply fail to understand, the issue of Rights.
I see this a lot for US members, I often wonder as to the way the world changed over the years.
The people that created these rights could not have forseen drug and gang culture when this "right" was given, does not law need to evolve with society?
Oh, I forgot to address your wild misconception on the issue of the origin of these rights. In the United States, according to our supreme laws (The United States Constitution and Bill of Rights) these rights are NOT GIVEN by the government. See, that is a common misconception by many. As it clearly states in our Declaration of Independence,
...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
In modern language, this means that we are all born with these inherent rights....they are granted by our creator (whoever that creator is for any individual, it does not specify a specific deity). Governments can only protect, i.e. secure, those rights for the people.
The Bill of rights expands and codifies the "...among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." by identifying some of them individually, like the right to keep and bear arms (the topic of this discussion). This indicates the government is supposed to protect these rights from infringement. In this particular amendment, the phrase "well regulated" means well trained (the 18th century definition of that phrase), not to impose laws to regulate (our modern definition of that word) the exercise of these rights.
I just wanted to clear up that misconception of your where you stated that when this "right" was given. In your country, perhaps the government grants your rights, and for you that might be normal. But in the United States, that is not the case, as I have explained prior.
I did explain from the start that I was an outsider so any misconceptions I may have could be put down to simple misunderstanding of a very complex country.
So in laymans terms are you saying that all Americans have certain rights because some people hundreds of years ago said so and then wrote it down?
I do not wish to cause offense here but that almost sounds like a religion to me?
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: Krakatoa
originally posted by: nonspecific
originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
originally posted by: nonspecific
As I said in the OP the issue was not the owning of a gun or multiple ones but carring them in public without good reason.
You do not need a reason to exercise your rights.
This again is something I simply fail to understand, the issue of Rights.
I see this a lot for US members, I often wonder as to the way the world changed over the years.
The people that created these rights could not have forseen drug and gang culture when this "right" was given, does not law need to evolve with society?
Oh, I forgot to address your wild misconception on the issue of the origin of these rights. In the United States, according to our supreme laws (The United States Constitution and Bill of Rights) these rights are NOT GIVEN by the government. See, that is a common misconception by many. As it clearly states in our Declaration of Independence,
...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed...
In modern language, this means that we are all born with these inherent rights....they are granted by our creator (whoever that creator is for any individual, it does not specify a specific deity). Governments can only protect, i.e. secure, those rights for the people.
The Bill of rights expands and codifies the "...among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..." by identifying some of them individually, like the right to keep and bear arms (the topic of this discussion). This indicates the government is supposed to protect these rights from infringement. In this particular amendment, the phrase "well regulated" means well trained (the 18th century definition of that phrase), not to impose laws to regulate (our modern definition of that word) the exercise of these rights.
I just wanted to clear up that misconception of your where you stated that when this "right" was given. In your country, perhaps the government grants your rights, and for you that might be normal. But in the United States, that is not the case, as I have explained prior.
So in laymans terms are you saying that all Americans have certain rights because some people hundreds of years ago said so and then wrote it down?