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Christians: How do you interpret Revelation 21:8?

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posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 06:47 AM
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Revelation 21:8
Parallel Verses

New International Version
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

New Living Translation
"But cowards, unbelievers, the corrupt, murderers, the immoral, those who practice witchcraft, idol worshipers, and all liars--their fate is in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

English Standard Version
But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

Berean Study Bible
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur. This is the second death."

Berean Literal Bible
But to the cowardly and unbelieving and having become abominable and murderers and the sexually immoral and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their portion is in the lake burning with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

New American Standard Bible
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."

King James Bible
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Every time I know a Christian is lying to me I want to ask them about Revelation 21:8. But, there a whole lot of other issues brought up in Revelation 21:8. Let's take the verse from the King James version. Who will "have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone"?

1. The fearful

2. The unbelieving

3. The abominable

4. Murderers

5. Whoremongers

6. Sorcerers

7. Idolaters

8. All liars

I don't see any conditions on any of those groups. I don't see an asterisk that says, "Those who believe in Jesus are excluded." For that reason, I've always thought Revelation 21:8 is one of the most problematic verses for Christians. Especially when one realizes...

It was the "God of the Bible" that was supposedly speaking in Revelation 21:8. I'm sure some will challenge the context of the verse.


Revelation 21
New International Version (NIV)

A New Heaven and a New Earth

21 Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”[a] for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Look! God’s dwelling place is now among the people, and he will dwell with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4 ‘He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death’ or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away.”

5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making everything new!” Then he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.”

6 He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give water without cost from the spring of the water of life. 7 Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”


I don't see anything in the context that changes the meaning. What am I missing?
edit on 25-12-2015 by Profusion because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 07:10 AM
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The clarification on some of these traits also seems a bit lacking.

For instance:

~ what exactly is a murderer? Is a soldier that fights for his country a murderer? Is a police officer who shoots a thief a murderer?

~ what exactly is immoral sex? If a man has sex with a woman, but they are 50 years apart, is that immoral? If the woman is under the age of consent in the country (but certainly not in biblical times), and the man is far older, making it pedophilia, is that immoral?

~ What exactly describes an 'unbeliever'? There are over 40,000+ denominations in Christianity, it's pretty evident no one really knows how to believe in Yahweh correctly, are 39,999+ denominations incorrect, and hell-bound?

The vagueness of it all is pretty evidently non-divine if you ask me.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 07:37 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147

You must be kidding. We have a pretty clear definition of a murderer, which has been the same for thousands of years. As someone who kills another, which you already know.

Technically, a soldier killing another christian in battle is a murderer in the biblical sense, but not the law sense. If you kill someone that is of another belief, you are merely a "crusader" and it is actually written in the bible, that people who believe in "different gods" should be stoned to death.


Immoral sex? Gotta be kidding again. Immoral sex is sex out of marriage, or with others (bastard sex) (I know, marriage weren't exactly around back when Jesus allegedly existed.)


An unbeliever? Easy. Muslims, atheist, hindus, I could go on? Are you joking again? Fcking troll.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

"King James Bible
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

"I don't see any conditions on any of those groups. I don't see an asterisk that says, "Those who believe in Jesus are excluded." For that reason, I've always thought Revelation 21:8 is one of the most problematic verses for Christians. Especially when one realizes... "

LOL Are you fkcing kidding me????? This is the bible you are taking this from, unbelievers are OFCOURSE someone who does NOT believe in the holy spirit. How can you not comprehend this? Seriously.
Clearly, the people you ask mentally retarded.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 07:47 AM
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originally posted by: SBargisen
You must be kidding.


No, I'm not kidding. If the bible was blazingly apparent and clear, there wouldn't be 40,000+ denominations.


originally posted by: SBargisen
We have a pretty clear definition of a murderer, which has been the same for thousands of years. As someone who kills another, which you already know.


Except it's not as simply as that. There are many battles in the bible that are totally justified by god, if not pressed to happen by god. If it's ok to kill another person, but only if it's for god, then I'm sure you are fine with stoning people to death for wearing cloths that have multiple fabrics within them, yes? That surely is not murder, correct?


originally posted by: SBargisen
Technically, a soldier killing another christian in battle is a murderer in the biblical sense, but not the law sense.


By non-christian law, no it's not. But, this topic isn't about modern laws is it? it's about christian laws.


originally posted by: SBargisen
If you kill someone that is of another belief, you are merely a "crusader" and it is actually written in the bible, that people who believe in "different gods" should be stoned to death.


Ah, so you do believe it's already to kill someone in the name of god. Well, I'm an Atheist, and I have some lovely stones outside of my house you can use to kill me with. Why haven't you done so yet?


originally posted by: SBargisen
Immoral sex? Gotta be kidding again. Immoral sex is sex out of marriage, or with others (bastard sex) (I know, marriage weren't exactly around back when Jesus allegedly existed.)


Right... So if a man were to marry a girl that's under 10, it is moral to have sex with her and do what you please. You do agree with this, correct?


originally posted by: SBargisen
An unbeliever? Easy. Muslims, atheist, hindus, I could go on?


For us to really define what an 'unbeliever' is, we must first define what a believer is. Everyone who claims to be a christian has a different definition of what christian really is, so yes, please do go on.


originally posted by: SBargisen
Are you joking again? Fcking troll.


There's a difference between trolling and critical thinking. I guess you lack the latter.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 07:51 AM
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a reply to: Profusion


This is the second death.

Into the Sun. 'Bad apples' will never leave this gravity well.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 07:57 AM
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a reply to: Ghost147

Let's get one thing straight, I do not myself believe that a virgin suddenly got infused with sperm from the holy spirit, making her pregnant, and neither do I believe that Jesus could make blind people see again. I am also mostly an atheist, I believe in science and I am a member of the church, but merely because of tradition and not because of pure belief. I am baptised, yes. I do plan on getting married in a church one day, yes.

Again, if you read the bible, an unbeliever will be someone NOT believing in the trinity, hence all other religions is unbelievers. Different branches of christianity will not make someone an unbeliever, but merely make someone live their way in a different way, or atleast slighty. Like the 10 commendments. Since they believe in the same trinity it is therefore the same belief. Period. A muslim does NOT believe in the trinity, but only Allah (God), in which a christian believes in the Father, son and holy spirit (Trinity)

Before I continue, I apologize for confusing you a bit with the word holy spirit, I thought the english word were holy spirit but it was indeed the Trinity. I have changed it were I found it in this sentence. English is second language, so do bear over with me.

- Alright. I do not believe in killing someone merely because they have another belief, I believe if someone won't cooperate with the system they shouldn't be here, but that's a politically aspect and not something to do with this debate. I were merely debating the bible, and not my own personal opinions of what is right and not right. (Ofcourse, everything with holy books is interpretational.)



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 08:00 AM
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a reply to: Profusion
This was written to believers, not unbelievers. I don't see how the verse is problematic to Christians at all. It's made clear throughout the bible, that if you practice certain things as a lifestyle, or habitually, you will suffer the eternal penalty. Christian or not.

It is true, that some sects hold to a "once saved, always saved" mentality. I personally, don't see where the bible teaches that, but they believe god won't let them backslide so far, that they would lose their salvation. However, they are not the majority among denominations.

Maybe this will help you... 1Peter4:17
For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


edit on 12/25/2015 by Klassified because: Grrrrrrr.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 08:00 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

Supposedly true Christians will not fall into any of those categories. When you're called to believe in Christ, I don't think that's just literal belief. I believe in Hitler as a literal historical figure, but I don't "believe" in Hitler. I don't think Jesus really cares if you literally believe in him but don't believe enough to follow his teachings. In fact if you think Jesus was a fictional character but you love your fellow man and you have gratitude for the gifts of nature, I'd bet he'd welcome you into his club when he's done driving off the false christians.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 08:03 AM
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originally posted by: VP740
a reply to: Profusion

Supposedly true Christians will not fall into any of those categories. When you're called to believe in Christ, I don't think that's just literal belief. I believe in Hitler as a literal historical figure, but I don't "believe" in Hitler. I don't think Jesus really cares if you literally believe in him but don't believe enough to follow his teachings. In fact if you think Jesus was a fictional character but you love your fellow man and you have gratitude for the gifts of nature, I'd bet he'd welcome you into his club when he's done driving off the false christians.


Lel. So true.
Too many thinks they are good christians just because they go to church every sunday, but they forget to be good people aswell.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 08:09 AM
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But.. Let's be honest guys.

The first book which the bible comes from is the Masoretic Text, which comes from the year 900 +-.

What happened in 900 years? lol. Tales from generation to generation might alter everything.

A father to his son, in the year 250 AD;
"Once upon a time, a man named Yeshua could stop the bleeding on a wounded man with herbs! The man survived."
^ Interesting? Nah. 1 feather becomes 10 hens;
"Once upon a time, a man named Yeshua could make the blind see again, turn water into wine and he battled fiercily against the romans with his rethorically wise words, etc etc.."
^ Definitely sounds more interesting.

- What do you honestly think happened? Not to mention the greedy priests through the dark ages and middle ages, they may have swapped a few things out to make even more money, and catch even more people.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 08:20 AM
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There is forgiveness, but in order to be forgiven, you have to first be aware of you sin and repentant which means you take responsibility for it and are remorseful for it.

Revelation does not address the repentant but the unrepentant.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 08:48 AM
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a reply to: Profusion

u are correct. the requirements are both open to all and apply to all. christians included. a christian must follow the way of God in the path set in example by Jesus. if they do not do so then they are not considered a Christian in God's eyes, regardless of if they went to church every day.

some christian denominations make error in believing that by jesus Death we were all saved just for becoming Christian, for believing in Christ. but believing in Christ also means to believe in his way and to follow it. His death only served as proof of faith in the eternal spirit. a demonstration of how we could conquer death if we lived a certain way. if you dont live that way.. you will not conquer death.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 09:20 AM
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a reply to: SBargisen

The Greek Septuagint has been around since at least the 3rd Century BC.
edit on 25-12-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 09:30 AM
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originally posted by: ketsuko
There is forgiveness, but in order to be forgiven, you have to first be aware of you sin and repentant which means you take responsibility for it and are remorseful for it.

Revelation does not address the repentant but the unrepentant.


Correct. The items cited are addressing the unrepentant.


Jesus said - Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death."


“Go and sin no more,” Jesus was not speaking of sinless perfection. He was warning against a return to sinful lifestyle choices.

Those choices are many including lying, cheating, immorality, sex, greed, etc.

With forgiveness comes the expectation that we will not continue in the same path of rebelliousness.

When we turn to Christ and receive His forgiveness, we experience a heart change .

Forgiveness is not cheap, and it does not excuse the sin that separated us from God. It cost God everything to offer us the cleansing that pronounces us righteous before Him.

Rather than continue in the self-centered path that led us astray from Him to begin with, the forgiven can walk in God’s path (Luke 14:27). A move toward God is a move toward righteousness, purity, and holy living (1 Peter 1:16; Romans 8:29). We cannot experience the transforming power of forgiveness without being forever changed.

When we meet Jesus, sin no longer holds its fatal attraction. Grace changes things.

When we are born again (John 3:3), the power of the Holy Spirit breaks the power that sin once had over us (Romans 6:6).



Sin leads to a downward progression. If left unchecked, continual sin leads to a “reprobate mind,” spoken of in Romans 1:24. Our sin nature causes us to gravitate naturally toward selfishness, envy, and pride, even when we are trying to do good. The build-up of unrepentant sin is sometimes pictured as a “cup of iniquity” being filled to the brim.

The acceptance of Sin as acceptable behavior is called Iniquity. Iniquity left unchecked leads to a state of willful sin with no fear of God. Very destructive.


Sin as Sin and to willfully accept it into your daily lifestyle has negative consequences.

We all are sinful but we have the choice to know and reject sinning as wrong or to accept it, promote it, perform it, an celebrate it.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 10:03 AM
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David murdered Goliath, he's a murderer along with others, remember the dude from soddom n Gomorrah? He was sexually involved with his daughters, yet god saved him? Solomon practiced sorcery and consorted with demons??? Wtf



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 10:21 AM
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a reply to: Profusion


Every time I know a Christian is lying to me I want to ask them about Revelation 21:8. But, there a whole lot of other issues brought up in Revelation 21:8. Let's take the verse from the King James version. Who will "have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone"?

You have a good point in being confused. Start from the very beginning of your thread. It is a matter of interpretation. I interpret this altogether differently that you and most others will interpret. My interpretation is that Revelation 21:8 is referencing the celestial New Jerusalem's new earth with its new heaven. Revelation 21:1 actually starts this thought which before chapters and verses became the readers delight, was the normal interpretation of scripture.

So here we see that John is expounding what Isaiah has taught in Isaiah 65:17-25 and comments further down in his Revelation ----------

Rev 22:14,15
(14) Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
(15) For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

As you can see there are flesh and blood people living on this new world and outside the gates of this celestial city called New Jerusalem. As you may have noted there is no more grace given to these people such as we have on this world through Jesus. Why should that be? It seems as though the law has been reinstated here on this new world by the fact that one would have to obey the commandments of God in order to be saved. I invite you to read and digest these last two chapters of Revelation with that thought.

Now in conjunction with John is that of Isaiah's account. This New Jerusalem of John's account has all sorts of sinners living in the flesh outside of the city. These people are children who are given one hundred years to prove themselves to God so that they may enter the New Jerusalem. This is why there are twelve gates in this New Jerusalem and guards on the gates.

Who are these children of the flesh and blood of Adam which Isaiah writes? Could they be the aborted? Could they be of the mentally challenged? Could they be of the little ones who did not have the chance of accountability? Could it be that they see God in the city of New Jerusalem and and are well aware of God as a fact and therefore do not have to believe in faith such as we do today? As you take the last two chapters of Revelation and combine them with the last two chapters of Isaiah i believe you will find a whole new aspect of Revelation.

the infants are ministered to by the care givers who are in the city proper. I believe that the children's maladies are healed by the leaves of the trees of life so that they may attain that one hundred years of testing for their salvation.

Rev_22:2
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

There is much more but this will give you an idea of interpretation and its many thoughts.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 10:30 AM
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originally posted by: Brotherman
David murdered Goliath, he's a murderer along with others, remember the dude from soddom n Gomorrah? He was sexually involved with his daughters, yet god saved him? Solomon practiced sorcery and consorted with demons??? Wtf


Check out Romans 3:5 and Psalm 116:11 below. Does the Bible say all men are liars? I believe it does. Revelation 21:8 says all liars are going to "have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

The Bible is not well thought-out. That's not really surprising when you consider how it was written. Somehow believers tap dance around every conceivable problem though. Here's another related problem:

skepticsannotatedbible.com...


Romans 3 ►
King James Bible
God Remains Faithful
(Psalm 147:1-20; Hebrews 10:1-18)

1What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? 2Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God. 3For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

4God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

5But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man) 6God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world? 7For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner? 8And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just.



Psalm 116:11

King James Bible
I said in my haste, All men are liars.



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 10:44 AM
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a reply to: Profusion



Why, why spend so much time and numerous threads trying to undermine belief in YHWH / Yashua? What do you hope to accomplish?

Merry Christmas!
edit on 25-12-2015 by infolurker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 25 2015 @ 12:28 PM
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Purification. In the after life, all are healed and purified. The fires and brimstone are actually words that equated to purifying and making whole.



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