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Eating Meat is Unethical

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posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 03:25 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus
a reply to: SeaWorthy

Sorry, that has nothing to do with your dopey claim that humans once got B12 from 'soil and water'.



VitB12 is a very deep topic with much yet to be learned by even the top experts, I am sorry you find any response of mine (or anyones), :dopey. I personally enjoy all remarks especially with links I can research.

So B12 is created by microorganisms, and is (ideally) to be found in water and soil. It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines
Even your mouth bacteria produces B12


Bacteria in the oral cavity does produces small amounts of corrinoids. However it has not been determined whether it is active or analogue.64

articles.mercola.com...
We are animals we do have vitb12 in the intestines like other animals. we need so little that a stored amount may be all we need for 20 years unless it is a failure to absorb it which can happen equally to meat eaters and non.

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...


Abstract
Human jejunal and ileal contents and ileostomy effluents were examined for the presence of free intrinsic factor. This was detected in 9 out of 10 jejunal and three out of five ileal aspirates and in one of three ileostomy effluents studied. The intrinsic factor in the ileal effluent was shown to be physiologically active. The presence of free intrinsic factor in the small intestine has considerable physiological significance in maintaining the enterophepatic circulation of vitamin B12. It would also permit the absorption of any free vitamin B12 produced by ileal bacteria.




1999 version of 'Human Anatomy and Physiology' by Marieb, it states quite clearly that we do indeed absorb vitamin B12 through our intestines.

www.vibrancyuk.com...




posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 03:29 PM
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originally posted by: SeaWorthy
So B12 is created by microorganisms, and is (ideally) to be found in water and soil. It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines
Even your mouth bacteria produces B12


Ingesting soil and water does not provide sufficient B12 to avoid a vitamin deficiency.

The rest of your sources do nothing to support a claim that B12 can be derived from non-animal or supplement sources in sufficient quantities to avoid health issues. Agartha provided numerous sources on this already.



edit on 29-12-2015 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 03:31 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: purplemer
We are not monkeys..



Although we do share a common meat-eating ancestor.




Humans did not evolve from apes, gorillas or chimps. We are all modern species that have followed different evolutionary paths, though humans share a common ancestor with some primates, such as the African ape. The timeline of human evolution is long and controversial, with significant gaps.Feb 14, 2013

Why Haven't All Primates Evolved into Humans? - LiveScience
www.livescience.com/32503-why-havent-all-primates-evolved-into-human...

All apes are primarily vegetarians



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 03:35 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: SeaWorthy
So B12 is created by microorganisms, and is (ideally) to be found in water and soil. It is also produced by bacteria in our intestines
Even your mouth bacteria produces B12


Ingesting soil and water does not provide sufficient B12 to avoid a vitamin deficiency.

The rest of your sources do nothing to support a claim that B12 can be derived from non-animal or supplement sources in sufficient quantities to avoid health issues. Agartha provided numerous sources on this already.

As I said there is decent even among experts and a lot to learn. I have a large family, all of their families are vegetarian or vegan all of their friends and ours are vegan or vegetarian, I see nothing but great health, if you have any interest in testimony of the actual persons affected.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 03:40 PM
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originally posted by: SeaWorthy
As I said there is decent even among experts and a lot to learn. I have a large family, all of their families are vegetarian or vegan all of their friends and ours are vegan or vegetarian, I see nothing but great health, if you have any interest in testimony of the actual persons affected.


'Decent' about our ancestors deriving B12 from consuming animals? Doubtful that any of it is from reliable, non pro-vegan sources.


edit on 29-12-2015 by AugustusMasonicus because: networkdude has no beer



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 04:00 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy

Heh?!?

Lets look at the ape superfamily family Hominoidea.

Humans - eat meat and are omnivores
Chimpanzees -Our closest relatives, eat meat and are omnivores. And have a capacity for violence that dwarfs humans
Bonobos - Eat Meat and are omnivores

Gorillas - Mostly herbivores. Some evidence of monkey meat in their feces.

Orangutans - Herbivores
Gibbons - Herbivores

So of the family 50% of them eat meat. One is debatable and scientists aren't completely sure.

the two others including one considered a lower ape are Herbivores.

Why haven't all primates evolved into humans. Gee I dunno. The crocodile and the shark are pretty much perfect and haven't evolved in Millions of years. Most of them been around longer than the dinosaurs. Why haven't the rest of the fish in the ocean evolved into Sharks. Same with the reptiles why aren't all of them crocodiles these days.

Also it could have something to do with changing environments that humans found themselves evolving in. The need to be bipedal, the luck of having superior opposing thumbs as opposed to sorta opposing thumbs, which coupled with the ability to make simple tools to kills things much bigger and yummier than what we were eating before increased our brain power making us different from the Chimps.



posted on Dec, 29 2015 @ 04:30 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy




1999 version of 'Human Anatomy and Physiology' by Marieb, it states quite clearly that we do indeed absorb vitamin B12 through our intestines.


I have the Anatomy and Physiology by Marieb, the 2014 edition (one of the books I own as I use them all the time due to my profession). Whilst it is true that it does say that vitamin B12 is absorbed in the intestines, what your link fails to specify is that it is absorbed in the terminal Ileum (small intestine), this is on pg 963 of the Marieb book.


Our large intestine has a specific type of bacteria that produces B12, but it is too low in the digestive tract to be absorbed and it just goes down with faeces. Which means that our production of B12 is useless as we can only absorb it further up in the digestive tract (in the terminal ileum).


^^^^ The above I copied from my own reply to you a few days back, which you obviously didn't read: HERE
Page 19
edit on 29-12-2015 by Agartha because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: saadad
There is no honey nor fruits on ice and polar bear eats what is there and I write when bear is hungry he will eat s and polar bear just do that. It is most dangerous animal for humans who live near polar bear.


Okay, what about sloth bears? They live in warm climates with access to fruits and honey but their diet is 90% animal protein.

Where did you get that?


leaves
Sloths are classified as folivores, as the bulk of their diets consist of buds, tender shoots, and leaves, mainly of Cecropia trees. Some two-toed sloths have been documented as eating insects, small reptiles, and birds as a small supplement to their diets.


The main argument for meat eating in this thread seems to be we are monkeys we should act like one.
We are related to everything on this planet, we are water and minerals.



The human body is more than 60 percent water. Blood is 92 percent water, the brain and muscles are 75 percent water, and bones are about 22 percent water.

Every year they discover a new humanoid which puzzles everyone.

The real issue is we have evolved and changed from any ancestor so it really has nothing much to do with what we CHOSE for ourselves for our future. I am sure everyone will agree we have become advanced enough to live without torturing and living thing. Eventually food will be a cube of nutrients per day time released.



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 11:45 AM
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originally posted by: SeaWorthy
Where did you get that?


Not sloths amici, sloth bears:


The sloth bear, though not as specialized as the previous two species, has lost several front teeth usually seen in bears, and developed a long, suctioning tongue to feed on the ants, termites, and other burrowing insects they favour. At certain times of the year, these insects can make up 90% of their diets. source



An argument for meat eating in this thread seems to be we are monkeys we should act like one.
We are related to everything on this planet, we are water and minerals.


But since we are technically more related to our primate cousins, who have already been shown to eat meat, we ought to be compared to them before making irrelevant comparisons to non-living chemical compounds like water and minerals.


The real issue is we have evolved and changed from any ancestor so it really has nothing much to do with what we CHOSE for ourselves for our future. I am sure everyone will agree we have become advanced enough to live without torturing and living thing. Eventually food will be a cube of nutrients per day time released.


We still have not evolved to the point where we can replace B12 intake with anything other than meat or supplements and I am not interested in the latter as a primary source.



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 12:04 PM
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originally posted by: BASSPLYR
a reply to: SeaWorthy

Heh?!?

Lets look at the ape superfamily family Hominoidea.

Humans - eat meat and are omnivores
Chimpanzees -Our closest relatives, eat meat and are omnivores. And have a capacity for violence that dwarfs humans
Bonobos - Eat Meat and are omnivores

Gorillas - Mostly herbivores. Some evidence of monkey meat in their feces.
Orangutans - Herbivores
Gibbons - Herbivores
So of the family 50% of them eat meat. One is debatable and scientists aren't completely sure.
the two others including one considered a lower ape are Herbivores.
Why haven't all primates evolved into humans. Gee I dunno. The crocodile and the shark are pretty much perfect and haven't evolved in Millions of years. Most of them been around longer than the dinosaurs. Why haven't the rest of the fish in the ocean evolved into Sharks. Same with the reptiles why aren't all of them crocodiles these days.
Also it could have something to do with changing environments that humans found themselves evolving in. The need to be bipedal, the luck of having superior opposing thumbs as opposed to sorta opposing thumbs, which coupled with the ability to make simple tools to kills things much bigger and yummier than what we were eating before increased our brain power making us different from the Chimps.


We are human, I don't see anyone comparing us to any other creature when we do other things, animals don't make TV, don't drive cars maybe we should stop that behavior?

Personally I don't think we evolved naturally anyway. Let's grow and evolve now, because we are different than the monkey and we can do whatever is best for us as a society. Whole species have been wiped out to make pretty hats with bird feathers, whales for women's undergarments we have changed some things.

Like another poster said if an alien species smarter than us arrived and killed us for our hide to wrap themselves in because it is pretty and soft, we would think they were barbaric horrors not smart at all.

Let us make decisions with our large brain and not with our taste buds. Go look closely and see first before deciding. It is like a cop taking a bribe without doing any crime, he is told the money is clean and doesn't look is he at fault?


At the slaughterhouse, cows are stunned by having a long, retractable bolt shot into their brains before their throats are slit. Many are terrified. All desire to go on living. They also see their family and friends and hear and smell their fear and hear them die as they wait in line.



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 12:05 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: purplemer
We are not monkeys..

Although we do share a common meat-eating ancestor.


Even the staunchest meat advocates recognize that protein and fat cannot power the brain – and we lose much of our gluconeogenesis capabilities at weaning. The argument is that meat eating provided the calories needed to power other parts of the body, freeing available carbohydrates to focus on the brain

evolvinghealthscience.blogspot.com...


But if we want to return to the diet our guts and bodies "evolved to deal with" (a concept that wrongly assumes our bodies are fine tuned by engineers rather than cobbled together by natural selection), perhaps we should also be looking our earlier ancestors.



Most primates have the capacity for eating sugary fruit, the capacity for eating leaves and the capacity for eating meat. But meat is a rare treat, if eaten at all.



The majority of the food consumed by primates today--and every indication is for the last thirty million years--is vegetable, not animal. Plants are what our apey and even earlier ancestors ate; they were our paleo diet for most of the last thirty million years during which our bodies, and our guts in particular, were evolving. In other words, there is very little evidence that our guts are terribly special and the job of a generalist primate gut is primarily to eat pieces of plants. We have special immune systems, special brains, even special hands, but our guts are ordinary and for tens of millions of years those ordinary guts have tended to be filled with fruit, leaves, and the occasional delicacy of a raw hummingbird.

blogs.scientificamerican.com...



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 12:08 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus




We still have not evolved to the point where we can replace B12 intake with anything other than meat or supplements and I am not interested in the latter as a primary source.



Ahh I see picky as to where you get your bacteria.



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 01:08 PM
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originally posted by: SeaWorthy

Ahh I see picky as to where you get your bacteria.


He is correct, no other way to get a good intake of B12 as I have explained on this thread many times.

Why do you and the OP keep on ignoring my posts?



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 01:13 PM
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originally posted by: SeaWorthy
Ahh I see picky as to where you get your bacteria.


Yup.



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 01:13 PM
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originally posted by: Agartha
Why do you and the OP keep on ignoring my posts?


Because it exposes the lies that many of their links are propagating.



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 01:22 PM
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originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

Because it exposes the lies that many of their links are propagating.


Thank you, why do people choose to believe pseudo-science is beyond me! ..... I'm having the same fun in the 'milk' thread too, actually! lol



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 02:54 PM
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a reply to: SeaWorthy



Even the staunchest meat advocates recognize that protein and fat cannot power the brain.


Your lack of understanding of biochemical process relative to nutrition and brain metabolism is astounding.
Protein provide amino acids and fat provide ketone bodies (Acetoacetate and Beta-Hydroxybutyrate) both of which are substrate for the brain.

I know it is probably completely hopeless to try to stop you from believing in your fairy tales but here is a link to a paper on the subject:
Brain substrates and the effects of nutrition - Cambridge Journals



... and we lose much of our gluconeogenesis capabilities at weaning.


WOW, this is one of the best proof of a total lack of the slightest capability at logical thinking... Then how is it possible for someone in total starvation to continue to provide for the obligate minimal amount of glucose required by the brain while "burning" internal fat and protein store? Ever heard that glycogen store is depleted after approx. two days?



posted on Dec, 30 2015 @ 10:18 PM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

As many meat eaters as vegetarians has b12 deficiency. Google it. How is that possible?



We still have not evolved to the point where we can replace B12 intake with anything other than meat or supplements and I am not interested in the latter as a primary source.


why do people still think that meat is the only natural source.

And also did you hear of milk and eggs. They also contain b12.

So this nonsense about meat being the ONLY source is false.

deny ignorance!
edit on 14515355801219December1912193115 by UniFinity because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2015 @ 12:56 AM
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a reply to: UniFinity



why do people still think that meat is the only natural source.

And also did you hear of milk and eggs. They also contain b12.


Nutrient contents in %DV of common foods for B12 per 100 g:

Egg (raw, uncooked) 22%
Eggs Yolk (Chicken’s) 33%
Cow's milk (whole) 19%
Low Fat Dairy (Skim Milk) 8%
Cheese (Swiss) 56%
Shellfish (Cooked Clams) 1648%
Liver (Beef) 1386%
Fish (Mackerel) 317%
Crustaceans (Crab) 192%
==> Red Meat (Beef) 100%
Fortified Soy Products (Silken Tofu) 40% (Pay attention to the word FORTIFIED here)
Fortified Cereals (All Bran) 333% (Here too)
Yeast extract Spreads (Marmite) 8%
Corn, rice, wheat, soybean, potato, spinach, carrots, papaya, pumpkin... 0%

Yes milk and egg contain B12 but that would be a serious problem for strict vegan that don't consume them. Since vegetarians consume these two, I see the whole discussion on vitamin B12 quite a bit futile.

ETA:
FYI here is a paper for you: Vitamin B12-Containing Plant Food Sources for Vegetarians



The consumption of approximately 50 g of dried shiitake mushroom fruiting bodies could meet the RDA for adults (2.4 μg/day), although the ingestion of such large amounts of these mushroom fruiting bodies would not be possible on a daily basis.





edit on 2015-12-31 by PeterMcFly because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 31 2015 @ 01:32 AM
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originally posted by: boymonkey74
Just to add I think it disgusting that people care more for animals than kids.
rspca gets five times more then the nspcc....


What's your real point here? People devote almost all of their time and energy to themselves, in this day and age. The few people who make an effort to better the lives of other creatures are arguably the least-deserving of your criticism. Every dollar you spend on entertainment, opposed to charity, falls under the "cares more for X than kids" category. It's really just an excuse for you to hate on people you already didn't like.

For example, the military budget for the USA, if one were to include the Black budget, is probably thousands of times larger than the amount we dedicate to children. Maybe you should redirect your aggression towards people who spend their lives making the world a worse place, and who don't do ANYthing for ANYbody else. The animal lovers are making the world a better place - leave them alone.



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