Walt Ray documents on the CIA Crest database server

The CIA Crest database is readable at the National Archives library at College Park MD. Some of the documents are on line. How the documents are chosen is beyond me since often the documents are just newspaper clippings.

For background information, here is Tom Mahood's hunt for the crash.
www.otherhand.org...

First up is the Las Vegas Sun article on Walt Ray's crash.


LC Sun Walt Ray crash

This is a document about the aircraft recovery.

crash recovery

The full crash report is on the CIA server, but not online. Yeah, I have a copy. ;-)

originally posted by: NewzNose

Actually I debated if I should post the page with the meta data for the direct linked to the pdfs. www.foia.cia.gov...

It turns out I forgot one document (above) which languished four years just on the server without being available for download.

I've described the CIA document system before on ATS, but it wouldn't hurt to describe the procedure again.

First of all, to my knowledge, the index to all the documents are on line.
www.foia.cia.gov...

If you plan on going to the National Archives, you can search the index at home rather than at the library, making your time at the archives more productive.

You will be required to view a brief training presentation and then be issued an identification card. This will get you past the guards. There is a vast list of contraband, much of which is surprising. The reaction to the flashlight on my Keychain was worthy of a gun at the TSA. They don't want you to fade old documents. Security is for the whole complex, not just the library.

Once qualified, you flash your stinkin' badge and head up to the library. I happen to know where the CIA stuff is located, but you should probably talk to the reference desk on your first visit.

When I was there, they had two servers covering difference time spans. You had to search each server.

The servers themselves are on the floor inside a cage that is bolted to the floor. There is a camera in the ceiling that looks over your shoulder.

On the tables are computers with software to search the servers. You have to get into the proper database. Some topics have so many documents that they get their own database. The CIA Stargate program for example.

There is no electronic document transfer. Nope, you print everything out on laser printers. No charge for the printer or paper. And if you need more paper, they have to get the CIA paper. Not just any paper will do.

When you have your stack of paper, and many reports are 500 pages, you need to cross out the "top secret" marking on the top and bottom of each page. Yes, this is PITA.

To leave the library, all your documents need to go in a courier pouch which is then locked with a padlock. Nobody can be seen carrying loose papers in the hallway. When you get to security, they will unlock the pouch.

I was quite surprised they had no problem with my cell phone. I was probably last there in 2009, so things may have changed.

This being Maryland, you might have a jacket in the winter. No bulky jackets allowed. You might smuggle out a document. They have lockers in the basement. Again no charge. They also have a cafeteria so you can stay on premises and avoid the security hassle.

a reply to: gariac

Thanks, my brain is still not working. I'll review this info tomorrow.

Why the security with the severs? Why not just put all the data on to other hard drives and make them accessible via a web portal since its now public information? Why do you have to actually go there?

If they want to preserve the original servers for historical reasons, create replicas for display and keep the originals away from the public where they might be damaged.

The information/data itself is the only real valuable thing...and data can be copied over and over...

I don't get it...

Whoops, somehow I glitched the matrix!

a reply to: MystikMushroom

This is a logic free zone. There is no restrictions with what you do with the data once you print it.

I was told the CIA just shows up at the archives and swaps drives when they want to do an update. No notice.
www.lazygranch.com...

I made an attempt to upload some unpublished documents. I really need to rethink this and convert them to pdf.

I found the 928 crash site this summer after a long long search. IT looked like not that many people have been there or it was visited by very respectful people, I saw a pile of old cans left by the recovery crew it looked familiar to me and I took a picture and when I got home i matched it up with a very old photo and they were in the exact same location
It took lots of research to find over the last 12 years and i live in the northeast so its hard for me to spend time on the ground searching. It was by far the most aggravating and at the same time fun crash site i have found
What made it so fun and rewarding was it is not easy to find

a reply to: unclewall

I don't recall old cans at the crash site. I do recall them where Walt's body was found.

You may note the documents may or may not provide information regarding the location of the crash site.

I haven't been back there in years. I did take Tom Mahood's advice to walk from the F-15 or F-16 crash site to the A-12 site since that is where he found large pieces. All I found was some chaff caught up in a bush.

The crash site isn't particularly remote by Nevada standards. The area where Walt's body landed is another story. You would probably want a second SUV or at least a Delorme Inreach.

I tried to find the F-4 crash in Mahood's story, but ended up getting a flat. I drove the whole route to Vegas through the Meadow Valley with one donut. In places. I had to get out the shovel and repair the road. Here is a tip. Most of those bridges in the Meadow Valley are condemned. You need to drive around them. That is, go into and then out of the wash. I really suggest not driving far in the Meadow Valley alone.

originally posted by: gariac
a reply to: unclewall

I don't recall old cans at the crash site. I do recall them where Walt's body was found.

You may note the documents may or may not provide information regarding the location of the crash site.

I haven't been back there in years. I did take Tom Mahood's advice to walk from the F-15 or F-16 crash site to the A-12 site since that is where he found large pieces. All I found was some chaff caught up in a bush.

The crash site isn't particularly remote by Nevada standards. The area where Walt's body landed is another story. You would probably want a second SUV or at least a Delorme Inreach.

I tried to find the F-4 crash in Mahood's story, but ended up getting a flat. I drove the whole route to Vegas through the Meadow Valley with one donut. In places. I had to get out the shovel and repair the road. Here is a tip. Most of those bridges in the Meadow Valley are condemned. You need to drive around them. That is, go into and then out of the wash. I really suggest not driving far in the Meadow Valley alone.

I tried to send you a pm it wouldn't let me maybe I don't have enough post who knows but there is a decent amount of small titiaum parts at the impact site

a reply to: unclewall

www.lazygranch.com...

I've had a copy of the LV Sun article on the internet for years, beating the CIA. ;-)

roadrunnersinternationale.com...

roadrunnersinternationale.com...

roadrunnersinternationale.com...

The nice thing is the 928 crash isn't in the high high desert. No snow. So you can search for it in say April or November, when things like Tikaboo would be kind of difficult.

In the last Roadrunners link, somebody found some very large bits of the plane that both I and Tom Mahood missed.

What made my hunt easy is I found some quad tracks one hunt and they lead to the site. There was a photo of some hunters (as in whacking Bambi, not hunting for crashes) that had photos of the debris.

I think it took me three trips to find the crash site.

a reply to: unclewall

I found the juice cans next to the fire pit that was used by searchers or by security guards who were stationed at the crash site. There was a can opener, too. Just think of it, a can opener from Area 51.

a reply to: Shadowhawk

Is that at the crash site itself or at the road?

a reply to: gariac

The camp site (fire ring/can dump) is at the main crash site. It is located in the lee of an eroded scarp approximately 250 feet SW of the point of impact.

originally posted by: Shadowhawk
a reply to: gariac

The camp site (fire ring/can dump) is at the main crash site. It is located in the lee of an eroded scarp approximately 250 feet SW of the point of impact.

Well this is interesting. I have photos of the cans on my website. You could have water boarded me and I would have sworn I never saw them. But the shiny metal was what I was looking for. I took the photos over a decade ago, so I'm cutting myself some slack. ;-)

www.lazygranch.com...

Quoting a younger incarnation of myself:

This looks like the official recovery crew trash, as opposed to more recent beer cans found in the area. For the benefit of the MTV and younger generation, the triangular holes in the cans were made by the so-called "church key" can opener. This predates the flip-top cans.

The "MTV" crowd comment itself is dated.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Thus far no documents indicate that the cameras were found. I do recall from the large CIA document that the canopy was recovered.

originally posted by: gariac

originally posted by: Shadowhawk
a reply to: gariac

The camp site (fire ring/can dump) is at the main crash site. It is located in the lee of an eroded scarp approximately 250 feet SW of the point of impact.

Well this is interesting. I have photos of the cans on my website. You could have water boarded me and I would have sworn I never saw them. But the shiny metal was what I was looking for. I took the photos over a decade ago, so I'm cutting myself some slack. ;-)

www.lazygranch.com...

Quoting a younger incarnation of myself:

This looks like the official recovery crew trash, as opposed to more recent beer cans found in the area. For the benefit of the MTV and younger generation, the triangular holes in the cans were made by the so-called "church key" can opener. This predates the flip-top cans.

The "MTV" crowd comment itself is dated.

en.m.wikipedia.org...

Thus far no documents indicate that the cameras were found. I do recall from the large CIA document that the canopy was recovered.

That's the cans I was talking about one of the piles is in the in the same exact positions
The camera would be quite a find considering a lot of effort was put in to finding it because it would have been a big help in determining the cause of the crash. I have thought about looking for it. I would look for it in places that horses could not reach because a lot of the search was conducted by horse back but there is a large search area and I have never heard of a location of where the canopy was found
Shadowhawk does the can opener from area 51 use a plasma cutter to open the cans. Nice find by the way the crash isn't in the spring mountains
Merry Christmas
Walt

a reply to: gariac

Funny you should mention the F-4 crash Gariac. I was in my dads basement on christmas eve and opened a box of what I thought were Christmas decorations.
Turned out, it was a plethora of old documents and photos I printed out in 1997.
But the real treasure were the three hand sized chunks of twisted metal at the bottom of the box from when pops and I visited that crash site.
I'll be posting more information on the boxes contents later today, but let's just say there are alot of rare items, documents, and photos from R-4808 and the surrounding area.
And some of these clues make ALOT more sense now than they did back then.
Happy holidays to all you folks. Miss being on here.

a reply to: HomeyKXTA

Excellent. This is the Mormon Mountain crash?

I was told later that Meadow Valley was not the way to approach the crash. There is some road off of I-15 you take.

a reply to: gariac

As soon as ATS decides to actually allow me to access my uploaded photos I shall post them. Either during my break at work, or immediately afterwards.