The Trinity Glue

originally posted by: DISRAELI
a reply to: newnature1
Even the blogger did not write the whole of that blog; sometimes he gets his material from someone who writes "Jesus", and sometimes from somebody who writes "Yeshua". Bit of a give-away, that.
Either way, there are rules on this site about "cross-posting" material.

I am using my other blog I wrote awhile back -
thatlifeyahwehhas.blogspot.com...:00:00-08:00&updated-max=2012-01-01T00:00:00-08:00&max-results=12

Now there’s one thing that the Romans made even more of, than the Greeks had made of, and this the patron-client structure. This is a bit more of a distinctly Roman institution, even a legal institution; but it’s important for understanding both the Roman Empire, as well as early Christianity and its patron-client relations. 


The household structure of a Roman household was this-the Roman household was constructed like a pyramid, not a triangle. At the top of it is the head of the household, the man, ‘the oldest man of the household.’ Under him is his sons, his daughters, and then at the bottom are his slaves, and here are his freedmen, freed persons. And then also we consider, in some ways, free people who may exist as clients. But legally the word client refers to the freed slaves of the man of the household.

Now where’s the wife in this picture, why isn’t the wife and mother in there? Because legally she’s actually not part of this man’s household. She remains part of the household of her father, and she’s legally under the control of her father probably, or her brothers, if her father is dead; or her grandfather, if her grandfather is still alive. But since life expectancy in the Ancient World was much less than ours, they didn’t have usually several generations in these households. 


The wife though is legally a part of her own household over here. Why did the Romans do that? That’s very different from the Greeks, very different from other people in the Ancient Mediterranean. Why did they want to make sure that the daughters stayed in the households of their fathers? They did this because they didn’t want the upper-class in Rome, who were the elite, they didn’t want anyone household, or any small group of households, to become too powerful. And if you have women marrying off into other families, and then they leave the household of their fathers, and they are officially and legally in a household with somebody else, that may end up increasing those households that have intermarriage coming in and not so much intermarriage going out. 


By keeping women under the household of the men of their original family, the upper-class Romans tried to balance these different households in size and importance. They didn’t care about the lower-class really. The lower-class didn’t really count much. What they cared about-because the Roman republic by this time was basically a bunch of every important households, wealthy men and their households, and they were the members of the Senate, they were the knight class, they were the people who ran Rome. So they didn’t want one king to arise, and they didn’t want a small coterie of leaders to arise. They wanted there to be some kind of balance of power among the several major households of Rome, the families of Rome. 


Now slaves, when a slave is freed in the Roman Empire, they didn’t become a free man, they became a freed man, and that was legally different. So the status of salve was lowest, freed persons was next highest in Roman Law; and free people were next; but even though they became freed, they were still considered a member of this guy’s household, as his client and his freedman, and they owed certain duties to him. Only in the Roman Empire could slavery actually start being a way that you can move up in society, because you could-if you were a talented slave, your owner might free you. 


When he freed you, if he was a Roman citizen, you would automatically become a Roman citizen also, and your children would be Roman citizens. And although you were a freedman, which was lower in status than a free person-there were some privileges you couldn’t have-your children would be, if they were born after you’ve been freed, would be free people, not freed. So within a couple of generations, people could move up from being the lowest slaves to two generations of being free Roman citizens. So Roman slavery and the freedom of that was actually one way that a few people in the Ancient World recognized some kind of social mobility, which was very rare in the Roman Empire. 


This will be very important, because Christians started out as house churches, and their house churches fit sometimes the model of a Greek ekkiesia, the voting body of the Greek citizens, an assembly, but sometimes the model of the Roman household; and so this household structure becomes very important.

a reply to: DISRAELI

Yeah I learned that the hard way about one of my own blogs. the whole thread was removed.

Israel's history - Leviticus 26, beginning with verse 40, is the confession Israel would be called upon to make. Israel would also have to accept the remainder of her punishment, that failure under the contract would call for and that would be the seven year tribulation. When John the Baptizer came along, had anything new begun? He simply called upon Israel to change their minds about their righteousness. 


John the Baptizer came in connection with God’s earthly nation Israel and in accordance with an offer to confess their failure under the contract in order to gain their promised land. That confession itself would be considered a fruit of righteousness in the eyes of Yahweh. The focus during John the Baptizer’s ministry was still Israel and the issue continued to be the land. Nothing had changed except that Israel was being offered the opportunity to confess their failure under the contract. Israel continued to be the focus and the land continued to be the issue. 


After Yahweh Gave up on the nations, Yahweh experiments with a single individual of believing; Abraham’s believing withstands many a trial. Yahweh is the owner of the land, Abraham was called to. Yahweh is empowered to set conditions or residency requirements for those who would reside in it, like a landlord. Yahweh is seeking replacement tenants who are going to follow the moral rules of residence that Yahweh has established for his land. 


Yahweh’s promise to Abraham is formalized in a ritual ceremony called a suzerainty covenant. The patriarchical covenant, which is a covenant in which a superior party, a suzerain dictates the terms of a political treaty usually, and an inferior party obeys them. The arrangement primarily serves the interest of the suzerain, and not the vassal or the subject. So Yahweh is making a land grant to a favored subject, and there’s an ancient ritual that ratifies the oath. In this kind of covenant, the parties to the oath would pass between the split carcass of a sacrificial animal, as if to say, that they agree they will suffer the same fate as this animal, if they violate the covenant. 


Abraham cuts sacrificial animals in two, and Yahweh, but only Yahweh, passes between the two halves. Only Yahweh seems to be obligated by the covenant, obligated to fulfill the promise that he’s made. Abraham doesn’t appear to have any obligation in return. In this case, it is the subject, Abraham, and not the suzerain, Yahweh, who is benefited by this covenant, and that’s a complete reversal of this ritual ceremony. 


If Israel was to regain her land, she would have to make that confession Leviticus 26 called for. And John came offering them, soliciting that confession from the nation. When Jesus comes on the scene; Israel’s Messiah is present among them, and Jesus preaches the same message as John the Baptizer. Nothing new has begun, Israel is still being called upon to make that confession concerning their failure under the contract. 


Yahweh’s salvation of his people from Egypt, not the Christian sense of personal salvation from sin; that’s anachronistically read back into the Hebrew Bible. It’s not there. Salvation in the Hebrew Bible does not refer to an individual's deliverance from a sinful nature. This is not a concept that is found in the Hebrew Bible. Salvation refers instead, to the concrete, collective, communal salvation from national suffering and oppression, particularly in the form of foreign rule of enslavement. 


Israel’s descent to Egypt sets the stage for the rise of a pharaoh who, didn’t know Joseph, and all that he had done for Egypt. And this new pharaoh will enslave the Israelites, and so embitter their lives, that their cry will rise up to heaven. Yahweh as Israel’s redeemer and savior, is Yahweh’s physical deliverance of the nation from the hands of her foes. But the physical redemption of the Israelites is going to reach its climax in the covenant that will be concluded at Sinai. 


Yahweh’s redemption of the Israelites, is a redemption for a purpose, for at Sinai, the Israelites will become Yahweh’s people, bound by a covenant. The covenant concluded at Sinai is referred to as the Mosaic covenant. The Mosaic covenant differs radically from the Noahide and the patriarchal covenants, because here Yahweh makes no promises beyond being the patron or protector of Israel; and also, in this covenant, he set terms that require obedience to a variety of laws and commandments. 


The Mosaic covenant is neither unilateral, it’s a bilateral covenant, involving mutual, reciprocal obligations, nor is it unconditional like the other two. It is conditional; the first bilateral, conditional covenant. If Israel doesn’t fulfill her oblations by obeying Yahweh’s torah, his instructions, and living in accordance with his will, as expressed in the laws and instruction, then Yahweh will not fulfill his obligation of protection and blessing towards Israel. 


So the Mosaic covenant, understanding of the relationship between Yahweh and Israel; the history of Israel will be governed by this one outstanding reality of covenant. Israel’s fortunes will be seen to ride on the degree of its faithfulness to this covenant. The nature of the biblical text, it reflects a range of perceptions about Yahweh and his relation to creation and to Israel. Understanding the making sense of the historical odyssey of the nation of Israel in covenant with Yahweh-that is its concern.

More of Israel's history - The law contract, Israel’s possession of the land called for perfect righteousness through performance. Israel produced no righteousness in connection with the law contract. She did not produce that righteousness back in the days of the prophets. She had not produced the fruit of righteousness the contract called for during the days of John the Baptizer’s ministry or during the days of Jesus’ earthly ministry to that nation. 


The issue was not their sins, Israel always had a way to have their sins atoned for. Yahweh gave them a way to have their sins forgiven. The issue was righteousness! After that long period of silence (400 years of silence) during which Yahweh refused to speak a word to the nation Israel, Yahweh would begin speaking to the nation once again. John the Baptizer would become Yahweh’s spokesman. This was an important time in Israel’s history as Yahweh would place the Kingdom that he had promised that nation right at their very doorstep. 


John the Baptizer’s baptism would be the mechanism that Yahweh would use to allow Israel to make her confession of failure, thus preparing the way for Yahweh’s Kingdom on Earth to get underway. This is where the second gospel-designation mentioned in Scripture comes into play; the gospel message called The Gospel or good news of the Kingdom. Why was Israel’s promised earthly Kingdom near, because Israel’s King was there!


It was Israel’s opportunity to change their thinking, because the institution of Yahweh’s Kingdom on earth was right around the corner. The only thing that stood in the way of the establishment of that kingdom was for Israel to recognize her King. The Gospel of Yahweh is about kingship identity. Who is the King for this Kingdom? That is the thrust of the Gospel of Yahweh. Jesus (Yeshua his Hebrew name) is the King; the Anointed One; the Messiah (meaning Christ), the son of the Living God. 


Now, that “on earth” part was very important, because the earth was the realm (according to prophecy) where Yahweh’s Kingdom would be established. The earth was the only realm of which Yahweh’s earthly nation Israel had been given inheritance. Heaven was not the issue for the nation Israel. They were never promised Heaven. Before proclaiming to Israel the identity of the king, Yahweh wanted Israel to know that the time was at hand for YAHWEH’S Kingdom on earth to be established, and that is all that John the Baptizer, and Jesus, and the 12 apostles began to preach; the Kingdom that Yahweh promised Israel, is at hand.


They were not yet preaching the identity of the king at this time, only that the Kingdom was at hand. The Gospel of The Kingdom had to do with the timing of Yahweh’s reign upon the earth, but when it was first being proclaimed, the identity of the king was not the issue at hand, when it came to proclaiming to Israel what Yahweh wanted to proclaim to Israel and had not yet been made known to Israel. That information was being withheld for a time and for a very good reason. 


As we come to understand this gospel more fully, we will see that the Gospel of Yahweh was an enhancement to, an addition to the Gospel of the Kingdom. We know they had been promised an earthly kingdom, it was now at Israel’s doorstep. The Gospel of Yahweh is the place where Israel’s real problem of unbelief manifested itself. So,why all the different gospel designations in the Word of God (El is the God of history), why not just one title? 


These Gospels has its own set of issues. Each of these gospels has its own purpose and its own place when it comes to the surrounding good news messages. Each speaks of its own unique circumstances as far as the information the Yahweh wanted to impart to Israel is concerned. Not every good news message is the same good news message that Yahweh wanted wanted Israel to hear. One good news message may add to, or enhance another message sitting around it. Then again, an additional good news message may alter completely what God’s doing which we will see in Scripture.

More of Israel's history - The 12 apostles who will be sitting on 12 thrones, judging or presiding over the 12 tribes of the nation Israel. That is the earthly component of the Kingdom of Yahweh, the good news that Israel’s promised earthly kingdom was right at her doorstep. Israel, the people to whom the Gospel of the Kingdom was being proclaimed could become a part of the Gospel of the Kingdom, meaning they would be granted entrance into that land they had been promised, that kingdom. But they would have to believe what they were seeing Jesus do and understand the connection that he was their Messiah. 


The kingdom of Yahweh is within you; the earthly kingdom would not be set up outwardly until the king of that earthly kingdom had been accepted inwardly by those to whom Yahweh was promising the kingdom. It was up to them as to whether or not that kingdom would be established outwardly at that time. They had no problem accepting that their kingdom was at their doorstep. They had a problem with accepting the identity of the king. That is where they fell, and this is what the Gospel of Yahweh is all about. 


By going back to the prophet Isaiah, Jesus revealed to his apostles that the blood of the second Adam was the basis by which Israel’s Kingdom program and Israel’s New Covenant could continue on. Remission of sins, the complete clearing away of Israel’s sin debt could now be accomplished just as Jeremiah, Israel’s New Covenant Prophet had proclaimed. Once the sanctuary is purged, the offerer has settled his debt, he’s repaired the damage he caused. He’s fully atoned, and God is no longer repelled by the impurity that marred his sanctuary. 


On the day of atonement, a purification sacrifice is brought on behalf of the community to purify the sanctuary of the impurities that have been caused by Israel’s sin. And the high priest loads all of the sins and impurities of the Israelites on the head of a goat, which then carries them off into the wilderness away from the sanctuary. Every sin pollutes the sanctuary; it may not mark the sinner, but, it does mark the sanctuary. It scars the face of the sanctuary. 


Matt. 27:51, the earthquake that fractured the rock opened a fissure that ran down through 20 foot of solid rock into a cave and cracked the stone lid on top of a black stone volt where the Ark of the Covenant lie hidden inside, pushing the lid aside. John 19:34, the blood that poured from the side of Jesus, ran down through that crevice and dripped onto the Mercy Seat of the Ark of the Covenant that was hidden by God and the prophet Jeremiah, right under where they crucified Jesus, 620 years earlier when the Babylonians destroyed Salomon’s temple. 


The Greek word used for “the cross” on which Jesus was put to death is “stauros,” which denotes an upright pale or stake. It never means two pieces of timber placed across one another at any angle, but always of one piece alone. There is nothing in the Greek of the New Testament even to imply two pieces of timber. The blood of Jesus would do no good for the Israelites dripping on “stauros,” because the second Adam’s blood was the basis by which Yahweh would now have just cause to remit or to clear the accounts of those with faith in time past, those who had trusted Yahweh’s word to them and who obeyed what Yahweh told them to do. 


According to Israel’s New Covenant, when would Yahweh finish what forgiveness alone would not accomplish where Israel’s sins were concerned? When would the forgiveness come? At what time would Yahweh completely clear the slate for Israel nationally-those believers who had been baptized according to John the Baptizer’s program? The blood of the second Adam would make it possible, but when would that total clearing of the accounts take place for Israel? 


A Priesthood would be essential if Yahweh was going to work at all with Gentiles during a time when Israel was a peculiar treasure unto him; a royal priesthood. Israel was given that instrumental role to play when it came to representing Yahweh to the nations at that time. Israel was to be a light unto the Gentiles according to prophecy. Israel was to make Yahweh’s name GREAT among the nations. Yahweh has always considered people righteous on the basis of their belief (faith). Call of Abram (Abraham). Now we have humankind divided into two different parts, Israelites and Gentiles. Abram is the father of Israel and the father of all with faith.

More of Israel's history While the King was on the earth, he had the power on earth to forgive people their sins, which would include physical healing in connection with earthly kingdom prophecy. When it came to Israel’s promised earthly kingdom and the forgiveness of sins by the earthly King of that promised earthly kingdom, what was absolutely essential to that forgiveness being granted? It’s always been the issue of faith down through out history. Faith of course, without faith they would not be forgiven and without forgiveness there would not be any healing. What would faith do in that program, when faith was called upon to do a work to prove itself?


Why would forgiveness and the necessity of that forgiveness be an important thing for Israel to understand? The answer to that is because of another concept that had its beginning in the garden called guilt. That guilt-worthiness in the mind of people originated in the garden can be plainly seen. You see, the problem was not that the Gentiles before Israel had no sense of guilt-worthiness. The problem is, they had no fear of Yahweh given the guilt-worthiness of which they were instinctively aware. They had a conscience. Guilt can be a wonderful thing when dealt with according to a proper understanding, but it can be a horrible, most devastating thing when Yahweh’s solution for it is not fully understood and appreciated. 


The Gentiles were never promised a particular territory upon earth as an everlasting possession, only Israel had been given that promise, they were promised a messiah. The gentiles were never promised a messiah. So what if you happened to be a Gentile living during the time when Israel had been promised a land and an earthly kingdom in that land and a king to rule in that land? Yahweh made provision for the Gentiles of time past by allowing them to convert to the tribe of Israel. 


In order to be identified with the people of Yahweh, with Yahweh’s nation which was Israel, a Gentile would have to identify himself with the covenant under which Yahweh was operating with Israel. It was called taking hold of the covenant. A Gentile, by taking hold of the covenant was saying that he was willingly placing himself under all of Israel’s covenant requirements. It would include taking hold of all of the law requirements after the law was handed down to the nation Israel. 


One of the commandments given to Israel even before the Law of Moses was handed down at Mt. Sinai, was the commandment of circumcision, which was the physical sign of the covenant Yahweh made with Abraham. That requirement remained firmly set in place, when it came to a Gentile who wanted to become an Israelite. Circumcision was the physical sign of being in relationship to the covenant Yahweh made with Abram and that physical distinction separated Israel from all the other nations of the earth. In order to become an Israelite, a person had to be obedient to the requirement of physical circumcision or be married to a man who was willing to fulfill that requirement. 


Before that kingdom could be realized, there was a prophetic event that had to take place first. The way Jesus taught has special application to that tribulation period to those people who were being taught to pray in this manner. This will be a very heartfelt prayer during the tribulation period. During the time of Jacob’s trouble, the Israelites will be under tremendous persecution from the antichrist. He will be putting Israelites to death for their faith. The Israelites will be praying at that time, “thy kingdom come” the promised earthly kingdom to be set up right here on earth, because the only hope of deliverance for the believing Israelites at that time, will be the coming of the king and setting up of the earthly kingdom. 


“Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven” is a divine definition of the millennium. The kingdom is when the will of Yahweh is carried out in the earth to the same degree it is carried out in heaven. The Israelites have an earthly hope, they were promised the earth forever. At the time when Israel will be facing the wrath of Satan - the time that Israel was being prepared for when they were being taught how to pray - Satan will have been kicked out of the heaven and cast down to the earth and Yahweh’s will, will indeed be being done in the realm where Satan has just been cast out. 


This prayer is appropriate for the Israelites of that day, they will be praying at that time just as the disciples had been taught to pray. It is recited in churches across the country in our day. It is recited as though it is a prayer for today. While we are not to use vain repetition, it is recited like vain repetition as people stand up and uttering together. At the time this prayer was being taught to pray “our Father” meant that you recognized, if you were an Israelite, that you had a covenant relationship with Yahweh; you were his children. 


These saints of the earthly kingdom program will be praying in the day “Give us this day our daily bread.” They will be worrying about that day, not the next day as that earthly kingdom becomes a reality for those Israelites. “Debtors” Israel’s status as a nation above all nations depended on this very thing. The believers of Israel will be seeking forgiveness in respect to their willingness to forgive. Yahweh will not restore that nation to a place of national prominence above all nations of the earth until they adhere to the exhortation, forgive us our sins as WE (corporately) are willing to forgive those who have sinned against us. 


There will be a people for Yahweh on the earth during those eventful years, and Yahweh indeed has provided for their instruction, and warning, and encouragement, in the second and third chapters of the Book of Revelation. Right at the beginning, they are the first subjects of Divine remembrance, provision, and care. Their needs must be first provided for, before anything else is recorded of the things which John saw; and there they will find what is specially written for their learning. But those readers will be at once be reminded of the various stages of their own past history, and they will find in almost every sentence some allusion to the circumstances in which they will find themselves as described in these seven letters. 


They are written to the People supposed to be well-versed in the history of the Old Testament, and well-acquainted with all that had happened to their fathers and had been written for their admonition. Instructed in the past history of their nation, they will readily understand the relation between the testings and judgments in the past with which they are familiar, and those similar circumstances in which they will find themselves in a yet future day. As we read these letters, the references to the Old Testament in the seven letters correspond with the historical order of the events, so it is with respect to the promises contained in these letters. 


While the historical events connected with the rebukes are carried down from Exodus to the period of the Minor Prophets, the promises cover a different period; commencing with the period of Eden, and ending with the period of Solomon. The subjects of the rebukes follow the order of the departure of the People from Yahweh. Their decline and apostasy is traced out in the historical references contained in these letters. But when we turn to the promises, then all is different.

More of Israel's history - Thy proceed in the opposite direction. The order, instead of descending from Israel’s highest ground of privilege (Exodus) to the lowest stage of destitution (Minor Prophets), the order ascends from tending a garden to sharing his throne. 


The seven promises are all intensely individual, there is no corporate existence recognized as such. “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil one. (AntiChrist)” The temptation spoken of here has to do with testing. Jesus had something particular in mind as he taught them how to be praying. The prayer of faith was a taste of the kingdom in time past.

originally posted by: newnature1
More of Israel's history - Thy proceed in the opposite direction. The order, instead of descending from Israel’s highest ground of privilege (Exodus) to the lowest stage of destitution (Minor Prophets), the order ascends from tending a garden to sharing his throne. 


The seven promises are all intensely individual, there is no corporate existence recognized as such. “And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil one. (AntiChrist)” The temptation spoken of here has to do with testing. Jesus had something particular in mind as he taught them how to be praying. The prayer of faith was a taste of the kingdom in time past.

We see the “prayer of faith” Israel walked by sight, Yahweh allowed their prayer life to work in connection with sight as that earthly kingdom was on their doorstep. Yahweh worked in connection with the sign nation, the healings that were performed and the power resident in the prayer of faith. When the kingdom program was ongoing and Jesus was ready to rule and reign right here on earth, a troubled believer could pray the prayer of faith, when presented with suffering circumstances and those circumstance would disappear. Yahweh provided that prayer of faith, because that kingdom was at hand and the time for troubling circumstances had come to an end. It was time to put an end to pain and suffering, because it was time for the King to rule and reign on this earth. 


Where the Mosaic covenant was contracted between Yahweh and the nation, the Davidic covenant is contracted between Yahweh and a single individual, the king. The Davidic covenant is an eternal and unconditional covenant between Yahweh and the House of David, or the dynasty of David. Yahweh says that David and his descendants may be punished for sin. They certainly will be punished for sin, but Yahweh will not take the kingdom away from them as he did from Saul. Yahweh’s unconditional and eternal covenants with the patriarchs and with David do not prelude the possibility of punishment or chastisement for sin as specified in the conditional Mosaic covenant. 


The covenant with David, it’s a covenant of grant, it’s a grant of a reward for loyal service and deeds. Yahweh rewards David with the gift of an unending dynasty, in exchange for his loyalty. Yahweh’s oath to preserve the Davidic dynasty, would lead eventually to a popular belief in the invincibility of the Holy City. The belief in Israel’s ultimate deliverance from enemies, became bound up with David and his dynasty. When the kingdom fell finally to the Babylonians, the promise to David’s House was believed to be eternal. The community looked to the future for a restoration of the Davidic line or Davidic king or messiah. 


The messiah simply means anointed, one who is “meshiach” is anointed with the holy oil, That is a reference to the fact that the king was initiated into office by means of holy oil being poured on his head. So King David was the messiah of Yahweh, the king anointed by or to Yahweh. And in the exile, Israelites would pray for another messiah, meaning another king from the House of David appointed and anointed by Yahweh to rescue them from enemies, and reestablish them as a nation at peace in their land as David had done. The Israelites hope for a messiah; it involved the restoration of the nation in its land under a Davidic king. 


The 12 apostles preached the reality of the resurrection of Jesus ‘the messiah’. The 12 apostles had preached the necessity of Jesus ‘the messiah’ being raised from among the dead, in order to sit on the throne of David in the promised kingdom.  Acts 1:4 - That promise had to do with being baptized with Yahweh’s energizing power from on high. This is not John the Baptizer’s baptism, this is a special identification of Yahweh’s power for the purpose of empowering those kingdom saints for the tribulation period at their doorstep and the millennial reign to come. Yahweh was in a very real sense giving Israel a taste of their promised earthly kingdom. Seven years stood between Israel and them gaining their earthly Kingdom. Paul taught what that resurrection meant to the Gentiles.

There are those who mistakenly suppose that reconciliation is the same thing as justification. These people have jumped to the conclusion that Jesus Christ taking the sin issue off the table of God’s justice through his becoming sin for the human race is that which makes a person as righteous as God; they have mistaken reconciliation for justification. Being declared righteous is God’s gift to the believing sinner and it has nothing whatsoever to do with the sinner himself doing anything to deserve or merit that righteous standing.

a reply to: newnature1

God did all the giving, we do only all the receiving

I knew there was a reason I was a slacker. but then Jesus words were misrepresented; Works versus faith, Pauline Vs James;

Don't believe everything your read, there's a reason they called the creator, little c, the Demiurge; run, run from the Old Roman Empire masquerading as Christianity today.

The shapeshifting Reptiles of old need your energy/emotions to give them sustenance.

a reply to: newnature1

Israel suffered even if excessive-that punishment isn’t meaningless, it will lead to redemption. Israel will be healed by her wounds.

Sort of like blood-letting; lot of blood in this religion, now why would that be. Too much cannibalism for my liking.

a reply to: newnature1

It is evident that the fire that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah is eternal, not because of its duration, but because of its permanent results.

And yet the practises of S & G escaped out into the wild and are still around today. Not very permanent...you're reasoning is no different than the inconsistencies within Testaments

a reply to: newnature1

Jesus did not have life in himself, so he could not be the source of that life; however, that being said, he was given the authority to give the promise to whomever he wished. He was not the source, but he was the only way to obtain the life from God himself. This is not semantics, the scriptures make it quite plain to anyone who reads it.

Depends upon how and what you believe. You do not have the autographs and neither do I have the autographs but I do have the majority text that verifies that the text I use is simply the majority text of over 5,000 manuscripts. In fact for many years your people used my texts of the majority available manuscripts from the very same translators that translated my text.

Now we see that your doctrine is the translation of selected texts which are not the majority texts and are not based upon the autographs. Naturally you must deny that Jesus preexisted as the Begotten of God and was incarnated with the life of the Father to suit your tampering with the manuscripts.

Example --

KJV
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

JW
John 1:4 - by means of him was life,+ and the life was the light+ of men.*

KJV
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

JW
John 5:26 -For just as the Father has life in himself,*+ so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

KJV
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

JW
John 10:17 - This is why the Father loves me,+ because I surrender my soul,+ in order that I may receive it again.
John 10:18 - No man has taken* it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again.

Do you see just how your people have tampered with the majority text?

Example -- In John 10:17 You have inferred that the soul is the terrestrial body and that a man is a soul with life in that soul. Now you say that Jesus (the angel) surrendered his body which is that terrestrial soul.
Then you say in John 10:18 that the angel Jesus has the authority to receive that soul again. But receive exactly what? His terrestrial soul? No? Or do you mean that He received His celestial soul? Substance change? It gets more interesting as the changing of the manuscripts deepens. Your understanding can never be compatible with the majority text and therefore not even remotely in agreement with most all Christianity.

originally posted by: Seede
a reply to: newnature1

Jesus did not have life in himself, so he could not be the source of that life; however, that being said, he was given the authority to give the promise to whomever he wished. He was not the source, but he was the only way to obtain the life from God himself. This is not semantics, the scriptures make it quite plain to anyone who reads it.

Depends upon how and what you believe. You do not have the autographs and neither do I have the autographs but I do have the majority text that verifies that the text I use is simply the majority text of over 5,000 manuscripts. In fact for many years your people used my texts of the majority available manuscripts from the very same translators that translated my text.

Now we see that your doctrine is the translation of selected texts which are not the majority texts and are not based upon the autographs. Naturally you must deny that Jesus preexisted as the Begotten of God and was incarnated with the life of the Father to suit your tampering with the manuscripts.

Example --

KJV
John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

JW
John 1:4 - by means of him was life,+ and the life was the light+ of men.*

KJV
John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

JW
John 5:26 -For just as the Father has life in himself,*+ so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.

KJV
John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

JW
John 10:17 - This is why the Father loves me,+ because I surrender my soul,+ in order that I may receive it again.
John 10:18 - No man has taken* it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again.

Do you see just how your people have tampered with the majority text?

Example -- In John 10:17 You have inferred that the soul is the terrestrial body and that a man is a soul with life in that soul. Now you say that Jesus (the angel) surrendered his body which is that terrestrial soul.
Then you say in John 10:18 that the angel Jesus has the authority to receive that soul again. But receive exactly what? His terrestrial soul? No? Or do you mean that He received His celestial soul? Substance change? It gets more interesting as the changing of the manuscripts deepens. Your understanding can never be compatible with the majority text and therefore not even remotely in agreement with most all Christianity.

Your religion is a con. You do not have the chapter and versus to back up your claims. You seem to be an evangelical person. To be an “Evangelical” means to uphold certain fundamental traditional doctrines without questioning. 
Any one who dares to question the Biblical validity of a traditional doctrine can become suspect as a “heretic.” Call me what you will, but you are a 'without questioning person'. If you would like to debate this subject matter, the first thing I'm going to take away from you is your I AM doctrine. Then I will take away your suffering servant doctrine. Your doctrine was add to John by changing meaning of words, let's have some fun?

a reply to: newnature1

Text Your religion is a con. You do not have the chapter and versus to back up your claims. You seem to be an evangelical person. To be an “Evangelical” means to uphold certain fundamental traditional doctrines without questioning. 
Any one who dares to question the Biblical validity of a traditional doctrine can become suspect as a “heretic.” Call me what you will, but you are a 'without questioning person'. If you would like to debate this subject matter, the first thing I'm going to take away from you is your I AM doctrine. Then I will take away your suffering servant doctrine. Your doctrine was add to John by changing meaning of words, let's have some fun?

Instead of all that whipping me why not start with what I posted? Any one can beat up air but lets start what I posted and produce the autographs and the majority Greek manuscripts. That would be be a very good lesson to give to me. What I am religiously has nothing to do with the majority of the known Greek manuscripts nor a fun matter in the least. It is a matter to most of where they will be for eternity. It is not a fun and game show time. This theology is not based upon how brilliant you think you are but is based upon thousands of translators, transliterators, and scholarly interpretations.

Is the following true? Lets start there -

Translators
Quote
The New World Translation was produced by the New World Bible Translation Committee, formed in 1947. This committee is said to have comprised unnamed members of multinational background.[20] The committee requested that the Watch Tower Society not publish the names of its members,[21][22] stating that they did not want to "advertise themselves but let all the glory go to the Author of the Scriptures, God,"[23] adding that the translation, "should direct the reader... to... Jehovah God".[24] The publishers believe that "the particulars of [the New World Bible Translation Committee's members] university or other educational training are not the important thing" and that "the translation testifies to their qualification".[24] Former high ranking Watch Tower staff have claimed knowledge of the translators' identities.[25]

Evangelical minister Walter Ralston Martin identified Nathan H. Knorr, Fredrick W. Franz, Albert D. Schroeder, George Gangas, and Milton Henschel as members of the translation team, writing of them, "The New World Bible translation committee had no known translators with recognized degrees in Greek or Hebrew exegesis or translation... None of these men had any university education except Franz, who left school after two years, never completing even an undergraduate degree." Franz had stated that he was familiar with not only Hebrew, but with Greek, Latin, Spanish, Portuguese, German, and French for the purpose of biblical translation.[26] In his critique of the NWT, K. J. Baumgarten wrote, the “NWT must be evaluated on its own merits, the qualifications of the committee members are not as relevant as the quality of their work product.”[27]
Unquote
Source en.wikipedia.org...

Start there and then tell me how you are going to beat up the Academia field. Lay your credentials on the table where all can see them.

Not only is everybody watching, there are people from my Facebook page watching. You will get a lot of help. Let's start were no human hands can touch God's word; Genesis 3:15. Show me your Trinity in the stars?

originally posted by: newnature1
Not only is everybody watching, there are people from my Facebook page watching. You will get a lot of help. Let's start were no human hands can touch God's word; Genesis 3:15. Show me your Trinity in the stars?

I'm going to focus on one star and show it's history. The groupings of the stars, there is no articulate speech or voice, and no words are heard, but their sayings have gone out into all the world (Ps. 19:1-6).