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Red Deer Cave people' bone points to mysterious species of pre-modern human

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posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 01:25 PM
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New work on a old find sheds light on the mysterious Red Deer Cave People


The findings result from a detailed study of the partial femur, which had lain unstudied for more than a quarter of a century in a museum in southeastern Yunnan, following its excavation along with other fossilised remains from Maludong ('Red Deer Cave') in 1989.

The investigators found that the thigh bone matched those from species like Homo habilis and early Homo erectus that lived more than 1.5 million years ago but are cautious about its identity.

"Its young age suggests the possibility that primitive-looking humans could have survived until very late in our evolution, but we need to careful as it is just one bone," Professor Ji said.

The discovery is expected to be controversial because, until now, it had been thought that the youngest pre-modern humans on mainland Eurasia -- the Neanderthals of Europe and West Asia, and the 'Denisovans' of southern Siberia -- died out about 40,000 years ago, soon after modern humans entered the region.

"The new find hints at the possibility a pre-modern species may have overlapped in time with modern humans on mainland East Asia, but the case needs to be built up slowly with more bone discoveries," Associate Professor Curnoe said.

Like the primitive species Homo habilis, the Maludong thigh bone is very small; the shaft is narrow, with the outer layer of the shaft (or cortex) very thin; the walls of the shaft are reinforced (or buttressed) in areas of high strain; the femur neck is long; and the place of muscle attachment for the primary flexor muscle of the hip (the lesser trochanter) is very large and faces strongly backwards.

Surprisingly, with a reconstructed body mass of about 50 kilograms, the individual was very small by pre-modern and Ice Age human standards.

Red Deer Cave people

The link with Homo Habilis is very interesting , is this the "yet to be identified" archaic ancestor that has shown up in recent genomic studies of ancient people in asia?

There are also some academics saying that Homo florensis might be more properly linked with habilis or even autralopithicus.




posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 02:29 PM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

Great discovery. We will surely come to find other such finds that will bring many of our presently held suppositions under additional scrutiny....I love science.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

These studies fascinate me, thank you for posting this P.
Were we all walking about together, at some point in the past? I wonder if we all knew each other, all of the different branches of our tree.

It also makes me wonder about stories of elves and wee folk? Is this where they originate from? Or were we the giants and we are telling their tales? I hope I live long enough to learn the answers.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 02:33 PM
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Intresting find ! I hope they upload autosomal DNA data to gedcom so we can wonder if we are related.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 03:23 PM
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originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: punkinworks10

These studies fascinate me, thank you for posting this P.
Were we all walking about together, at some point in the past? .


Yes, at one point in time there were as many as 5 human species on the planet. This time period is unusual in that there's only ONE human species around.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 03:33 PM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

Sounds like the Red Deer "Annual Hide and Seek" champion of 11,985 BC...

All jokes aside, they say these bones are from a smaller type of human, but how do they know the bones don't belong to a 10 or 11 year old child of that time?



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 03:45 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: punkinworks10

These studies fascinate me, thank you for posting this P.
Were we all walking about together, at some point in the past? .


Yes, at one point in time there were as many as 5 human species on the planet. This time period is unusual in that there's only ONE human species around.


Not necessarily. Ever heard of the Ebu Gogo? There was a documentary about them called "The Cannibal in the Jungle" and supposedly were still alive in 1977 in the jungles of Flores, Indonesia.

www.phantomsandmonsters.com...

...it follows the story of an American scientist who was convicted of killing and cannibalizing two colleagues in the jungles of Flores, Indonesia in 1977.

The Ebu Gogo are described as small, nasty people with a voracious appetite that sometimes included the devouring of the occasional human baby. Ebu Gogo have hair covered bodies, longish arms, big bellies and protruding ears. They were said to walk awkwardly and could be heard murmuring in their own language and were said to be capable of mimicking human speech. When they could tolerate the Ebu Gogo no more the Flores islanders drove the small people in the direction of the caves, perhaps near Liang Bau or perhaps they burned the survivors alive. In any case, these stories were probably told to keep truculent Flores children in line in much the same fashion as some western fairy tales are told.

Could be a fairy tale, could be real...



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 03:55 PM
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a reply to: LSU0408
they most likely know because of muscle attachment sites are more pronounced than that of a child



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 03:58 PM
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a reply to: punkinworks10

Hm.

I wonder if this overlap of the two species could have had an influence over "leprechaun" and "fairy" myths.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 04:10 PM
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a reply to: Byrd

Do you never wish you could go back for a day, maybe 30,000 years ago or so, just to fly over and observe for a while? Did they meet each other, what history did they tell each other, how did they function as collectives?
It would probably be too hard to leave after a day, I'm too nosey.

edit on 18-12-2015 by beansidhe because: sp



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 04:12 PM
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a reply to: hiddenNZ

Gotcha, thanks.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 04:13 PM
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originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Byrd

Do you never wish you go back for a day, maybe 30,000 years ago or so, just to fly over and observe for a while? Did they meet each other, what history did they tell each other, how did they function as collectives?
It would probably be too hard to leave after a day, I'm too nosey.


Lol, no way I could leave after a day... I'd hit every major timeline if I could.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: LSU0408

I'd give my right arm to wander about the Bronze Age for a year or two - so many questions.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 06:22 PM
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originally posted by: LSU0408
a reply to: punkinworks10

Sounds like the Red Deer "Annual Hide and Seek" champion of 11,985 BC...

All jokes aside, they say these bones are from a smaller type of human, but how do they know the bones don't belong to a 10 or 11 year old child of that time?


Or an Asian Pygmy type race



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 09:18 PM
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Nice find OP, I heard about these guys a while ago but the conclusion then seemed to be that we didn't have enough evidence to properly classify them as a separate species.

The Denisovans managed to get themselves a separate species classification, even when all they had was a bit of tooth.

And let's not forget the Hobbit people, Homo floresiensis. The Red Deer Cave people are also pretty small.

With the Denisovans, DNA in extant humans confirms interbreeding, so if they can extract DNA from Deer Cavers, maybe they can find matches in the surrounding populations. Denisovan DNA makes up about 5% of Melanesian genomes, and they actually originated pretty far away and still managed to interbreed with other human species, so maybe a study into the genetic make-up of the people around Yunnan Province might yield some insight.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 09:57 PM
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Hobbit remains perhaps Homo floresiensis


Scientists have determined that the first skeleton they found belongs to a species of human completely new to science. Named Homo floresiensis, after the island on which it was found, the tiny human has also been dubbed by dig workers as the "hobbit," after the tiny creatures from the Lord of the Rings books.

The original skeleton, a female, stood at just 1 meter (3.3 feet) tall, weighed about 25 kilograms (55 pounds), and was around 30 years old at the time of her death 18,000 years ago
news.nationalgeographic.com...
.

The wee people were real and well within our era.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:24 PM
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originally posted by: Spider879
The wee people were real and well within our era.


Only if you're Indonesian, the rest of the wee people owe more to the success of Christianity than anything else



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:27 PM
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originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: punkinworks10

These studies fascinate me, thank you for posting this P.
Were we all walking about together, at some point in the past? .


Yes, at one point in time there were as many as 5 human species on the planet. This time period is unusual in that there's only ONE human species around.


Another slant on that, based on recent morphological studies prompted by the discovery of H. Georgicus is that the variety of morphological features seen in contemporaneous finds might simply be indicative of far more variety in appearance in our ancestors and in fact, H. Habilis, Erectus, Rudolphensis et al may actually be one species. There are many specimens found bearing more archaic features than were to be expected for the time range attributed to the finds.

I suppose at the end of the day, it comes down to the minutiae of how one wants to define "species" and then we have to consider the impact of the Toba event, the subsequent bottleneck as well as the Toba events impact on other members of our genus. By the time "we" made our way into Europe, HN was already in a rapid decline and their genetic diversity was greatly diminished from inbreeding as a result of declining populations over a period of 20-30 KA

But I digress... depending on how far back you want to go, as recently as 100 KA, there were 5-6 distinct varieties of humanity. Farther back there were even more. I often wonder what neat and tidy little boxes future anthropologists will try to place humanity from the Holocene into.


eta- just to give a more clear picture of what Im talking about, here are 5 skulls found ad Dmansi Georgia. Notice the large degree of variation in skull and facial morphology...

edit on 18-12-2015 by peter vlar because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:30 PM
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originally posted by: beansidhe
a reply to: Byrd

Do you never wish you could go back for a day, maybe 30,000 years ago or so, just to fly over and observe for a while? Did they meet each other, what history did they tell each other, how did they function as collectives?
It would probably be too hard to leave after a day, I'm too nosey.


I would totally go back 75 or 80 KA andpull a Margaret Mead and follow some HN around the Levant to see what kind of reaction they had when HS first left Africa and the two met for the first time.
edit on 18-12-2015 by peter vlar because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:42 PM
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Interesting re-study of a pre modern human.

My theory has always been we are a mixture of multiple hominid species ( yet to be all identified ) separated for 10 of thousands of years, them brought back together via land mass and climate change. Rinse and repeat.

Quite simply I think our history is far more complicated than most anthropologists have suggested n the past.



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