Downed Russian SU-24 black box first information

a reply to: DJW001

yeah dude assad and russia are bombing civilian targets on purpose. like i said whatever fantasy it takes to confirm your bias.

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

The two independent specialists from Britain and China in on it too?

Did you read my post? They will give a technical explanation saying that it is impossible to say with certainty, but the Russians will downplay that in favor of emphasizing that the plane was no threat to Turkey.

And if it turns out to be conclusive what will you say then?

I will say I was wrong. I am occaisionally wrong. In this case I'm pretty confident it will sort out as I have said.

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: DJW001

yeah dude assad and russia are bombing civilian targets on purpose. like i said whatever fantasy it takes to confirm your bias.

Assad was:



Do those look like military targets to you? Precision airstrikes? But this is getting a bit off target. The investigation will definitely be spun to "prove" Turkey committed a criminal act.

originally posted by: DJW001

originally posted by: sosobad

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: sosobad

The two independent specialists from Britain and China in on it too?

Did you read my post? They will give a technical explanation saying that it is impossible to say with certainty, but the Russians will downplay that in favor of emphasizing that the plane was no threat to Turkey.

And if it turns out to be conclusive what will you say then?

I will say I was wrong. I am occaisionally wrong. In this case I'm pretty confident it will sort out as I have said.

My goal in this arguement is that you understand this is not a good guy and bad guy thing. This is like two drug lords that kill each other. Erdogan and Putin are very similar.

The FSA and Assad are capable of being monsters. Once you loose your moral compass and deny the social contract you are what did Hobbes say in Leviathon human nature is cruel barborous greedy,... The FSA is very possibly as bad as Assad.

Once you reach that conclusion this whole mess comes to light as what it is. A classic quagmire.
www.theguardian.com...

a reply to: DJW001

um. whats the proof that those arent military targets? do people not fight in residential areas and cities all of the sudden?

hey remember the Baghdad bombings? looks quite similar. this is what war is. you cant just condemn one side because you have a bias.

a reply to: DJW001

The investigation will definitely be spun

And you talk about Putin trying to brainwash people

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: 23432

Germany doesn't have much to say about the US killing innocents in air strikes. it seems no one does. that is also what gets ignored in this propaganda war isnt it? fact of the matter is civilian casualties are inevitable. every war ever has had civilian casualties and they usually outweigh militant casualties. is your suggestion that everyone stop fighting isis in fear of civilian suffering?

It is my suggestion that the parties who are in Syria are not there predominantly to fight Daesh but a secure their interest in the up an coming unravelling of Syria and Iraq .

Besides here is a picture of area the jet was shot down , faaaar away from DAESH controlled areas .



The only reason Turkmen got bombed is because Asad wanted it . It had nothing to with DAESH whatsoever .

a reply to: 23432

who cares where the jet was? ISIS can roam. Russian jets can roam too. where they fly is far besides the point. and especially since turkey is working with isis patrolling the Turkish border seems like a very good thing to do.

and im not really sure what you are saying. you are saying they are not there to fight isis, and this is true they arent. they are also fighting the so called FSA which after all ive seen is pretty much the same thing. both groups are destabilizing the region are they not. this whole thing started with a civil war. and guess who armed the rebel parties.

but you did not answer my question. like at all. what do you suggest happens. because its either airstrikes are carried out in hopes of defeating isis or letting isis take syria. there is no negotiating(atleast i dont think).

oh and what turkmen got bombed? there was no bombing of turks. russian jets were just patrolling and they were attacked.

a reply to: luthier

My goal in this arguement is that you understand this is not a good guy and bad guy thing. This is like two drug lords that kill each other. Erdogan and Putin are very similar.

That is exactly what I have been saying all along. It is the Putinistas who think that Putin is engaged in some holy crusade against the infidels.

originally posted by: 23432

originally posted by: AVoiceOfReason
a reply to: 23432

Germany doesn't have much to say about the US killing innocents in air strikes. it seems no one does. that is also what gets ignored in this propaganda war isnt it? fact of the matter is civilian casualties are inevitable. every war ever has had civilian casualties and they usually outweigh militant casualties. is your suggestion that everyone stop fighting isis in fear of civilian suffering?

It is my suggestion that the parties who are in Syria are not there predominantly to fight Daesh but a secure their interest in the up an coming unravelling of Syria and Iraq .

Besides here is a picture of area the jet was shot down , faaaar away from DAESH controlled areas .

The only reason Turkmen got bombed is because Asad wanted it . It had nothing to with DAESH whatsoever .

Ha. That is possible. However a narrative scripted for you. Think strategically. If you want to train in secret where do you go? Why do people train in mountains? Not only terrain use its to hide. Lots of clouds lots of caves for better satellites.

Why are the Turks and fsa in the mountains? To train and store supplies. Same reason Isis is. Isis is also all over the FSA seeing as many have defected already.

Do people really think the FSA are the good guys? What proof can you offer the FSA will create a great nation in Syria.

Please. This isn't at all a simple situation. Unless you draw from various sources and talk with people from all over the world about different perspectives its even harder to know.

a reply to: DJW001

That is exactly what I have been saying all along. It is the Putinistas who think that Putin is engaged in some holy crusade against the infidels.

who here thinks hes on a holy crusade. we all know he is there to help an ally which in turn helps him get a foothold on the ME.

ohh but the fantasy has to fit your bias.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

hey remember the Baghdad bombings? looks quite similar. this is what war is. you cant just condemn one side because you have a bias.

But I have been condemning both sides. In any event, this is off topic. The Russian propaganda machine has already sown the seeds of the "Turkey is a criminal regime" meme. Fellow travelers will have to back pedal when Putin and Erdogan sign a new trade deal with a pipeline from Russia to the Med running through Turkey.

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

who here thinks hes on a holy crusade

Just read the post above yours.

originally posted by: DJW001
a reply to: luthier

My goal in this arguement is that you understand this is not a good guy and bad guy thing. This is like two drug lords that kill each other. Erdogan and Putin are very similar.

That is exactly what I have been saying all along. It is the Putinistas who think that Putin is engaged in some holy crusade against the infidels.

Well you allude its a bit simpler and that Turkey did the "right" thing. They did not and the international community shouldn't support a guy that behaves like that. Now we have to be diplomatic to both sides. Only truly sick individuals actually go far enough to push the limit.

People critize Obama for not going in after the whole red line mistake. The mistake was him saying it. The reality is we should not get over committed to any Syrian militant groups. They should all be suspected corruptible. It's a war zone with people doing what ever to survive. Time and the again giving militant groups even who started with good intentions too much credit, training, and weapons has backfired.

a reply to: DJW001

ive never seen you condemn anyone but russia and assad. but i digress.

russia showed the proof that turkey is working with ISIS. is that not criminal? turkey wants the same thing russia wants, influence. but they are working with ISIS to get it. russia is setting up trade deals, trying to stabalize nations, and fighting against ISIS. i cant speak on which is good or bad for anyone but myself but it really doesnt look good for turkey imo.

thats not to say russia is not doing anything bad. but you gotta break some eggs to make an omelet. hell id even support the united states actions over the last couple decades if i knew that the end goal was stabilized wealthy nations. but we all sort of know based on current events is not the case.

a reply to: DJW001

Just read the post above yours.

ive made like 20 posts dawg. give me a break and quote it for me. im all ready over here to tell you why you are exagerating with your farcical "holy crusade" comment.

a reply to: DJW001

The Russian propaganda machine has already sown the seeds of the "Turkey is a criminal regime" meme.

I think the Turkish government done a bang up job all by themselves.

originally posted by: Dimithae
a reply to: 23432

Um so under your reasoning,I am to take it that if Mexico shoots down an American plane,then its okay for the US to shoot down a Canadian one? wth kind of reasoning is that? Just because someone is your ally,does not make you responsible for their actions. Unless you assured other partners of controlling them. WHICH THE US DID IN SYRIA. We were supposed to be letting all our ' allies' know who was flying where and at what time. Mistakes can be made,but guess what you do when one is made? You call up that countries leader and say "Oh my gosh! We accidentally shot your plane down.So so sorry about that" You don't go call NATO and lay out plans with them for 8 hours. Get real.

Turkey is and HAS been a huge violator of boundaries of its neighbors. Whine all you want about it,but Turkey has no complaints when it comes to others in its airspace. Make up my mind on this one,Turkey either has
1. Crappy GPS
2.Crappy pilots
or
3. a Crappy president
So which is it?

Yeah yeah we get it with you. Your all rah rah sis boom bah over Turkey.Great. No place like home,okay. But I am not going to believe my country's nonsense. So I sure am NOT going to believe your country's nonsense either..

Show sad pictures all you want,this is about the black box from the plane and what may be in it. Putin has not 'appointed' himself anything at all.He has done EXACTLY what any president worth his weight would have done for his country over this. All this stuff about Russia's economy? Pics or it didn't happen pal.

Any president worth his salt would order an inquiry into as to why his planes are bombing Turkmens in Syria .

Any president worth his salt would acknowledge the accusation of Vialation seriously and would do something about it unless if he was disengenius to begin with .

As we speak Russian population is talking about all these questions and the a famous Russian historian already announced Putin the be the guilty party from a get go .

You attempt to paint me as somewhat a nationalist ; I am anything but a Turkish nationalist , you are mistaken the outrage I feel about the some of ATS users echoing supremacist arguments as a nationlistic reaction.
It is not .

Turks & Greeks have a dispute in Aegean and as such the borders are not accepted by both parties . As a result what you call violations occur while Turks fly over international borders .

Dog fighting over Aegean is nothing new ; settle the dispute should Greece and Turkey do before and upmost .

You are rightfully sceptical about your Masonic Goverment , I would too if I were you and in fact untill this current government pretty much every Turkish Government was approved by Masons ; Erdogan is the only Leader in modern Turkish history to give two fingers to Masonic Lodges wishes in Turkey.

You could say that Erdogan has started a war against the masonic power in Turkey and If he succeds , USA is next .
Ironically , such a development would make you owe Erdogan one .



You do know Masonary were founded in Istanbul at 1700's and Erdogan was a mayor of Istanbul for a long time , right ?

1721 - 1826 A lodge whose name is lost, operated in Istanbul, somewhere near the Galata tower, during the reign of Osman III (1703 – 1730). The lodge was founded probably c. 1721 by Levantines (mainly) Genoese living in quarters near the tower.

Turkish Mason Connection


Tell me who your enemies are and I will tell you who you are says the proverb .

At least you should know that Erdogan is fighting against the " Invisible Dark Power " which is a plauqe on any government .

He is also fighting against the Banking & Judiciary elite to break the influence of the Masons .

a reply to: AVoiceOfReason

ive never seen you condemn anyone but russia and assad. but i digress.

Fine. The US invasion of Iraq was illegal. The use of torture by the military and CIA was illegal. Happy? Erdogan is little better than a gangster. Saudi Arabia is backward and dangerous. Anyone else I need to condemn for you? Or would you care to actually address any of the points I have raised? Do you really believe that Russia will publish an objective report? Or will they bury the truth under a lot of exaggerations and misdirection? What do you think?

originally posted by: sosobad
a reply to: DJW001

The Russian propaganda machine has already sown the seeds of the "Turkey is a criminal regime" meme.

I think the Turkish government done a bang up job all by themselves.

And Russia appreciates all the help it gets.