It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Questions about the subject of History in general.

page: 2
6
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 09:08 AM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with studying him or linking him as a catalyst to get us to where we are in the present. That is all acceptable. After all, there have been quite a few people who've lived in the past and not all of them held opinions or did things we agree with socially these days. But they all influenced things to get us to where we are today so it always helps knowing about them. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we should idolize him based on false pretenses.
edit on 18-12-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 09:16 AM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: nwtrucker

As far as "revisionist" history, the trend is normally more of a "corrective" history. For example, the details and accounts of Christopher Columbus has always been around but that didn't stop a Jingoist curriculum to form a myth of heroic exploration around the man. Now we know better and people sometimes think that's "revisionist" history when, in truth, nothing was added; we just stopped lying about it.


I think that Columbus day is by FAR the most awful holiday in this country. It's a holiday that basically says, "Hey let's honor a slave trader and pillager by pretending he was the man who discovered the Americas."


I, on the other hand, am completely grateful he was and did.

So rather than the continued expansion of that knowledge, we are reduced to subjective labels from the comfort of our relatively save and secure present existences.



Why are you grateful that he was a slave trader? I think he should be considered one of history's villains and CERTAINLY shouldn't have a holiday named after him. There really are zero significant reasons to even respect him. He wasn't the first person to arrive in the Americas. Heck, he wasn't even the first European to arrive in the Americas. Then his arrival kicked off the economic conquest of the Americas that oversaw massive death due to sickness and illness, not to mention my prior mention of him being a slaver.

What exactly is there to be grateful about Christopher Columbus about? There certainly isn't anything wrong with studying him or anything, but idolizing him is white washing history and that is the other form of history I was referring to.


Your question regarding Columbus being a slave trader is a signal example of the revisionist history I hold in contempt.

It is not a 'correction' whatsoever. It is stressing a point, amongst others, which omits the positives in a fashion to place that event as a complete negative. You can hold that view as you wish. Columbus day, for the rest of us, represents...an acknowledgement and an appreciation of a pretty good place to live and raise a family.

You know that, of course. You deliberately leave that out. Whether merely in malicious pleasure of irritating others or perhaps some self loathing.

Slave trading was a cultural fact. Holding him or any Founding Father responsible for that culture at the time is blatant garbage....and you know it.

This is the revisionist history I refer to.

Perhaps there's more than one kind. The correction aspect which seems valid. Then there's this version. It requires a new name or codification.

The dissembler's history?

In any event, thank you for this excellent example....


I pine for the old tradition of 'duels'. Much better manners and ending of arguments....
edit on 18-12-2015 by nwtrucker because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 09:38 AM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: nwtrucker

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with studying him or linking him as a catalyst to get us to where we are in the present. That is all acceptable. After all, there have been quite a few people who've lived in the past and not all of them held opinions or did things we agree with socially these days. But they all influenced things to get us to where we are today so it always helps knowing about them. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we should idolize him based on false pretenses.


No one idolizes him. It is purely symbolic. No symbol or individual is without flaw. It is a given. Not a point of proclamation.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 10:00 AM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

That isn't revisionist history. It actually happened. Revisionist history is when someone says something happened in the past that didn't happen. You should really learn the definitions of the phrases you are using.

I'm sorry, but I refuse to honor a man that traded in human flesh. I don't care if that was an accepted course of action back in the day, it was and is reprehensible and just because it was the norm of the day doesn't make it alright. There are MUCH better explorers we could talk about that we can honor other than Christopher Columbus. I'm not looking for a perfect person, but I'm not going to honor a white-washed conceptualization of him just because YOU think he represents a good place to live (which he doesn't, that idea was attributed to him as part of the white washing I'm talking about).

I'm not revising history, I'm presenting all of it.
edit on 18-12-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 10:00 AM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: nwtrucker

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with studying him or linking him as a catalyst to get us to where we are in the present. That is all acceptable. After all, there have been quite a few people who've lived in the past and not all of them held opinions or did things we agree with socially these days. But they all influenced things to get us to where we are today so it always helps knowing about them. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we should idolize him based on false pretenses.


No one idolizes him. It is purely symbolic. No symbol or individual is without flaw. It is a given. Not a point of proclamation.


Naming a holiday after someone is idolizing them.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 10:14 AM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: Abysha
a reply to: nwtrucker

As far as "revisionist" history, the trend is normally more of a "corrective" history. For example, the details and accounts of Christopher Columbus has always been around but that didn't stop a Jingoist curriculum to form a myth of heroic exploration around the man. Now we know better and people sometimes think that's "revisionist" history when, in truth, nothing was added; we just stopped lying about it.


I think that Columbus day is by FAR the most awful holiday in this country. It's a holiday that basically says, "Hey let's honor a slave trader and pillager by pretending he was the man who discovered the Americas."


I, on the other hand, am completely grateful he was and did.

So rather than the continued expansion of that knowledge, we are reduced to subjective labels from the comfort of our relatively save and secure present existences.



Why are you grateful that he was a slave trader? I think he should be considered one of history's villains and CERTAINLY shouldn't have a holiday named after him. There really are zero significant reasons to even respect him. He wasn't the first person to arrive in the Americas. Heck, he wasn't even the first European to arrive in the Americas. Then his arrival kicked off the economic conquest of the Americas that oversaw massive death due to sickness and illness, not to mention my prior mention of him being a slaver.

What exactly is there to be grateful about Christopher Columbus about? There certainly isn't anything wrong with studying him or anything, but idolizing him is white washing history and that is the other form of history I was referring to.


Your question regarding Columbus being a slave trader is a signal example of the revisionist history I hold in contempt.

It is not a 'correction' whatsoever. It is stressing a point, amongst others, which omits the positives in a fashion to place that event as a complete negative. You can hold that view as you wish. Columbus day, for the rest of us, represents...an acknowledgement and an appreciation of a pretty good place to live and raise a family.

You know that, of course. You deliberately leave that out. Whether merely in malicious pleasure of irritating others or perhaps some self loathing.

Slave trading was a cultural fact. Holding him or any Founding Father responsible for that culture at the time is blatant garbage....and you know it.

This is the revisionist history I refer to.

Perhaps there's more than one kind. The correction aspect which seems valid. Then there's this version. It requires a new name or codification.

The dissembler's history?

In any event, thank you for this excellent example....


I pine for the old tradition of 'duels'. Much better manners and ending of arguments....

It may seem as stretching a point to you because it is largely omitted and sanitized, and yes he Columbus is idolized have you seen the temple like structures dedicated to him in both Dominican Republic and Spain. yes heroes are flawed some more flawed than others based on their actions even for their era, and is history political?? off course it is, it used to be the case in what was once Rhodesia now Zimbabwe , that the ancient cities and ruins were not of local origins, saying any thing differently could get you charged with sedition , because the Govt then, need the lie that they as new comers were bringers of civilization to the helpless natives.
Another example is the Louisiana purchase, we all knew that the U.S got the territory dirt cheap from France but few knew the Haitian impact after they kicked out the French.
The Armenian genocide denied by Turkey to date political fact or fiction depending on who is telling their version, and when one talk of revisionism look no further than Texas school books and their creative editing and omissions.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 10:32 AM
link   
a reply to: Spider879

I suppose.

If 'History' is to the Human Race what memories and life experiences are to the individual, then messing with my memories had better align with those experiences.

What the Spanish hold as points of merit or proclamation isn't germane to Columbus day in the U.S.. Especially when being a slave trader becomes the point of highlight.

I don't see anyone extolling that whatsoever. Columbus Day is an acknowledgement of his achievement. One that has significance to the present nations of the Americas.

When slave trading becomes the accented point in the current teachings in the U.S. education system for the Founding Fathers rather than the Constitution and it's development and articulation, then the political intention becomes rather obvious.

That is my concern. Moral equivalents are not.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 10:48 AM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Spider879

I suppose.

If 'History' is to the Human Race what memories and life experiences are to the individual, then messing with my memories had better align with those experiences.

What the Spanish hold as points of merit or proclamation isn't germane to Columbus day in the U.S.. Especially when being a slave trader becomes the point of highlight.

I don't see anyone extolling that whatsoever. Columbus Day is an acknowledgement of his achievement. One that has significance to the present nations of the Americas.

When slave trading becomes the accented point in the current teachings in the U.S. education system for the Founding Fathers rather than the Constitution and it's development and articulation, then the political intention becomes rather obvious.

That is my concern. Moral equivalents are not.


That maybe fine for you if you are not of the first nation folks, or don't really care about the impact handed down to you through your ancestors, it's all good whether one choose to celebrate or weep during that day, but one should insist the full story is being told.
edit on 18-12-2015 by Spider879 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 10:57 AM
link   

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Spider879

I suppose.

If 'History' is to the Human Race what memories and life experiences are to the individual, then messing with my memories had better align with those experiences.

What the Spanish hold as points of merit or proclamation isn't germane to Columbus day in the U.S.. Especially when being a slave trader becomes the point of highlight.

I don't see anyone extolling that whatsoever. Columbus Day is an acknowledgement of his achievement. One that has significance to the present nations of the Americas.

When slave trading becomes the accented point in the current teachings in the U.S. education system for the Founding Fathers rather than the Constitution and it's development and articulation, then the political intention becomes rather obvious.

That is my concern. Moral equivalents are not.


That maybe fine for you if you are not of the first nation folks, or don't really care about the impact handed down to you through your ancestors, it's all good whether one choose to celebrate or weep during that day, but one should insist the full story is being told.


I'm fine with that. Tell the full story. Hopefully not on Columbus Day.

I can't do anything about the negative impacts of the past. (Assuming I would change them and I lean towards not, at this point.)



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 10:58 AM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker

What achievements do you think Columbus achieved exactly?



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:00 AM
link   

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: nwtrucker

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with studying him or linking him as a catalyst to get us to where we are in the present. That is all acceptable. After all, there have been quite a few people who've lived in the past and not all of them held opinions or did things we agree with socially these days. But they all influenced things to get us to where we are today so it always helps knowing about them. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we should idolize him based on false pretenses.


No one idolizes him. It is purely symbolic. No symbol or individual is without flaw. It is a given. Not a point of proclamation.


Naming a holiday after someone is idolizing them.


A big difference between an acknowledgement and Idolization. There is no 'holiday' in the U.S. for Columbus Day. Any more than the 100's of official 'days' proclaimed in the U.S..



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:05 AM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Krazysh0t

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Krazysh0t
a reply to: nwtrucker

Like I said, there is nothing wrong with studying him or linking him as a catalyst to get us to where we are in the present. That is all acceptable. After all, there have been quite a few people who've lived in the past and not all of them held opinions or did things we agree with socially these days. But they all influenced things to get us to where we are today so it always helps knowing about them. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean we should idolize him based on false pretenses.


No one idolizes him. It is purely symbolic. No symbol or individual is without flaw. It is a given. Not a point of proclamation.


Naming a holiday after someone is idolizing them.


A big difference between an acknowledgement and Idolization. There is no 'holiday' in the U.S. for Columbus Day. Any more than the 100's of official 'days' proclaimed in the U.S..


I'm really at a loss as to the semantics you are trying to argue with me here. You are trying to say that because Columbus Day isn't a day off type of holiday, that we somehow aren't idolizing him? Whatever. So what did Columbus do that you think deserves his acknowledgment?
edit on 18-12-2015 by Krazysh0t because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:12 AM
link   

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Spider879

I suppose.

If 'History' is to the Human Race what memories and life experiences are to the individual, then messing with my memories had better align with those experiences.

What the Spanish hold as points of merit or proclamation isn't germane to Columbus day in the U.S.. Especially when being a slave trader becomes the point of highlight.

I don't see anyone extolling that whatsoever. Columbus Day is an acknowledgement of his achievement. One that has significance to the present nations of the Americas.

When slave trading becomes the accented point in the current teachings in the U.S. education system for the Founding Fathers rather than the Constitution and it's development and articulation, then the political intention becomes rather obvious.

That is my concern. Moral equivalents are not.


That maybe fine for you if you are not of the first nation folks, or don't really care about the impact handed down to you through your ancestors, it's all good whether one choose to celebrate or weep during that day, but one should insist the full story is being told.


I'm fine with that. Tell the full story. Hopefully not on Columbus Day.

I can't do anything about the negative impacts of the past. (Assuming I would change them and I lean towards not, at this point.)


If not then when??



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:14 AM
link   

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: nwtrucker

originally posted by: Spider879

originally posted by: nwtrucker
a reply to: Spider879

I suppose.

If 'History' is to the Human Race what memories and life experiences are to the individual, then messing with my memories had better align with those experiences.

What the Spanish hold as points of merit or proclamation isn't germane to Columbus day in the U.S.. Especially when being a slave trader becomes the point of highlight.

I don't see anyone extolling that whatsoever. Columbus Day is an acknowledgement of his achievement. One that has significance to the present nations of the Americas.

When slave trading becomes the accented point in the current teachings in the U.S. education system for the Founding Fathers rather than the Constitution and it's development and articulation, then the political intention becomes rather obvious.

That is my concern. Moral equivalents are not.


That maybe fine for you if you are not of the first nation folks, or don't really care about the impact handed down to you through your ancestors, it's all good whether one choose to celebrate or weep during that day, but one should insist the full story is being told.


I'm fine with that. Tell the full story. Hopefully not on Columbus Day.

I can't do anything about the negative impacts of the past. (Assuming I would change them and I lean towards not, at this point.)


If not then when??


When you make a thread that merits a S&F I don't copy and paste all the dumb ones....



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:27 AM
link   
Here is some history well worth the consideration in this day and age of censorship



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:49 AM
link   
a reply to: Krazysh0t




So what did Columbus do that you think deserves his acknowledgment?
In a comparative analogy I would point to a time in history where it was said that the Natives of North America were barbaric and scalped people . If you trace the history of scalping back you find a chap that actually paid bounties on Native American ( Indian ) scalps ...the price varied from the male down to the child . There was monuments erected to honour this person in the white mans tale . The Natives finally got a voice to have these acknowledgements questioned . A good book to consider is " We were not the savages by Daniel N. Paul ...www.danielnpaul.com...'kmaqHistory.html

The rest is the battle of present day history .



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 11:58 AM
link   
a reply to: the2ofusr1

That guy sounds familiar. I think I remember hearing about this too. Thanks for the input and you are right. It's amazing how me pointing out how someone ACTUALLY behaved gets me accused of history revisionism, but honoring an ideal that isn't true about someone is how we should do things.



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 12:20 PM
link   

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
a reply to: Krazysh0t




So what did Columbus do that you think deserves his acknowledgment?
In a comparative analogy I would point to a time in history where it was said that the Natives of North America were barbaric and scalped people . If you trace the history of scalping back you find a chap that actually paid bounties on Native American ( Indian ) scalps ...the price varied from the male down to the child . There was monuments erected to honour this person in the white mans tale . The Natives finally got a voice to have these acknowledgements questioned . A good book to consider is " We were not the savages by Daniel N. Paul ...www.danielnpaul.com...'kmaqHistory.html

The rest is the battle of present day history .


The was a native version. it was, iirc, counting coup....



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 12:24 PM
link   

originally posted by: the2ofusr1
Here is some history well worth the consideration in this day and age of censorship


Very cool. This isn't particularly revising history. it seems more like filling in the blanks. one would hope that the author also includes similar suppression of facts by the Viet Cong NK and Russian-Chinese who also used Vietnam as a proxy war...



posted on Dec, 18 2015 @ 12:58 PM
link   
a reply to: nwtrucker




The was a native version. it was, iirc, counting coup....
say wha ???




top topics



 
6
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join