Why is satan willing to give so much power?

thats not true, we were given the messiah to help us in casting out evil. why he gives power? i have no idea, possibly because hes so insanely jealous and mentaly torchured hes insane? or just filled with hate. i cant judge, neither can you. these are beings that are different. i go on the model of our reality that all lifeforms have interdependant relationships.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Freewill vs Self will.

You mean there’s a difference between the two…?

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Self will is the means to pursue Free will;

Hmmmm…so through “self will” (process) we can pursue freewill…gotcha…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
The human may possess Self will, NOT free will as God owns this territory.

But…”free will” can’t be possessed anyway, because God owns that territory….

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
If one accepted we are God particles (its creation divided from itself) those individualized parts of Itself would have free will

But… if we accept that we are God particles then voila, “free will” is activated…


This all reminds me Isaac Asimov's three laws…not sure why…


Anyway, Interesting theory LOL…


Have a drink on me…





- JC

a reply to: Joecroft
Someone is reading this thread; I am still waiting for a response from the OP regarding your insightful query (a thread is made and the OP goes "POOF" I am now the StaPuff marshmallow man; no longer human, a delicious figment of your imagination while it lasted).

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: vethumanbeing

vhb:Freewill vs Self will.

JC: You mean there’s a difference between the two…?

Yes subtle.

JC: Self will is the means to pursue Free will; Hmmmm…so through “self will” (process) we can pursue freewill…gotcha…

vhb:
The human may possess Self will, NOT free will as God owns this territory.

JC: But…”free will” can’t be possessed anyway, because God owns that territory….

It can as you are God Particle Individualized.

vhb:
If one accepted we are God particles (its creation divided from itself) those individualized parts of Itself would have free will

JC: But… if we accept that we are God particles then voila, “free will” is activated…This all reminds me Isaac Asimov's three laws…not sure why…Anyway, Interesting theory LOL…
Have a drink on me…- JC

Then Self will inflicts its boomerang. What is your holiday drink of choice and will raise one to you; *no rubbing alcohol*.

originally posted by: ketsuko
a reply to: Cogito, Ergo Sum

Taxes aren't a good example.

Yes, we talk about how we do them against our will, but we aren't actually forced to do them. We simply make the choice to do them because the negative consequences of not doing them are a higher price than most of us are willing to pay.

Social Security would be a better example. That is taken out of your paycheck without you having any choice at all.

It was a joke.

a reply to: vethumanbeing

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Someone is reading this thread; I am still waiting for a response from the OP regarding your insightful query (a thread is made and the OP goes "POOF" I am now the StaPuff marshmallow man; no longer human, a delicious figment of your imagination).

That (first) post was more of a statement than a query…but Yeah, insightful is true enough…

Originally posted by vethumanbeing
Then Self will inflicts its boomerang. What is your holiday drink of choice and will raise one to you.

I don’t normally drink, being Holy and blessed an all lol…but seeing as it’s you, and you’re in your Stapuff outfit, and with Christmas fast approaching, I will become like King Kong, so I can toast (reach) your beer with my own glass…

Guinness Cheers

And…

Merry Christmas


- JC

originally posted by: vethumanbeing

CES: I certainly didn't toss it to the wayside. I used the term within an English language reply and in context.
Your "pursuing free will" as opposed to "having free will" argument simply uses semantics to allow whatever claim suits your argument. Like having an "each way bet". If you think humans have "limited free will" (which is still free will by the way) say so. No need for vagueness. It's unlikely anyone ever thought we had the unfettered free will of a god to begin with. A rose, is a rose, is a rose...

They are two separate variables the human can choose from is all. I have no argument as I did not invent the words/language or the definitions of (merely reciting a possible direction of choices; not the consequence). I am abstract/vague by nature so cannot help myself in order to make a better version. If one accepted we are God particles (its creation divided from itself) those individualized parts of Itself would have free will (key definition: individualized; a part of God but separate enough to work with it but not for it).

Fair enough vethumanbeing. I understand what you are saying, though we are approaching this in very different ways. I'm not approaching it from belief or acceptance of an existent god, as much as from a science point of view.

It is becoming more and more accepted in fields of neuroscience, genetics (and even by many psychologists themselves), that human free will is an illusion. Experiments are showing that many of our decisions happen in the brain first, before we are even consciously aware of them. There does also seem to be links to certain traits or disposition and inherited genetics. The link to environmental factors and psychology is obvious. Our psyche, the choices we make and what we think of as free will is very likely to be the result of other causal factors.

It's like saying that our entire bodily systems are the result of preceding causes (billions of years of biological evolution) and obey certain scientific principles, except for one emergent property of evolution in the brain. That alone is different and within that there is some "magical" property that allows for something novel or original that is independent of any cause. That's very unlikely.

Though consciousness itself is still something that isn't really understood very well. The notion of free will seems based mostly on assumption. Especially compatible with the religious assumption/belief that people have an individual "soul" and so on. Though it might not be so.

originally posted by: 3NL1GHT3N3D1
According to the Bible, God is the one who gives power to those running the show, not Satan.

Romans 13
1 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God.

If God is the one who gives people their positions in authority, why is the world so screwed up? He's been giving the wrong people power apparently.

Just because a government calls itself an authority doesn't mean that it is authority from God. My local authority that collects the bins wasn't created by God, otherwise we would have collections every week and not have to pay for garden waste. The police are an authority. In my district which is closer to God, and would God create different types of authority, some not as good as others? God is perfection. He's not going to go halves on something so it fits with conservative party policy... Paul was instrumental in removing a number of authorities. Isn't that heresy then?

In Revelation Jesus is Legislator Divine and Counsel Divine. That's the authority that matters.

That has to be the most stupid quote in the Bible. Take my advice, just pay heed to John and Revelation. Ditch the rest as nonsense.

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum
originally posted by: vethumanbeing
CES: I certainly didn't toss it to the wayside. I used the term within an English language reply and in context.
Your "pursuing free will" as opposed to "having free will" argument simply uses semantics to allow whatever claim suits your argument. Like having an "each way bet". If you think humans have "limited free will" (which is still free will by the way) say so. No need for vagueness. It's unlikely anyone ever thought we had the unfettered free will of a god to begin with. A rose, is a rose, is a rose...

vhb: They are two separate variables the human can choose from is all. I have no argument as I did not invent the words/language or the definitions of (merely reciting a possible direction of choices; not the consequence). I am abstract/vague by nature so cannot help myself in order to make a better version. If one accepted we are God particles (its creation divided from itself) those individualized parts of Itself would have free will (key definition: individualized; a part of God but separate enough to work with it but not for it).

CES: Fair enough vethumanbeing. I understand what you are saying, though we are approaching this in very different ways. I'm not approaching it from belief or acceptance of an existent god, as much as from a science point of view.

You approach from a scientific point of view; God is not proven to exist unless one realizes you are God Aspect acting out Its WILL.

CES:It is becoming more and more accepted in fields of neuroscience, genetics (and even by many psychologists themselves), that human free will is an illusion. Experiments are showing that many of our decisions happen in the brain first, before we are even consciously aware of them. There does also seem to be links to certain traits or disposition and inherited genetics. The link to environmental factors and psychology is obvious. Our psyche, the choices we make and what we think of as free will is very likely to be the result of other causal factors.

Free will is environmentally causal and self will is God caused or the direct opposite of both?

CES: It's like saying that our entire bodily systems are the result of preceding causes (billions of years of biological evolution) and obey certain scientific principles, except for one emergent property of evolution in the brain. That alone is different and within that there is some "magical" property that allows for something novel or original that is independent of any cause. That's very unlikely.

I see a God aspect (creator being) coming into play with that diatribe.

CES:Though consciousness itself is still something that isn't really understood very well. The notion of free will seems based mostly on assumption. Especially compatible with the religious assumption/belief that people have an individual "soul" and so on. Though it might not be so.

Of course its understood; a perspective observed from your idea form/person/individualized God aspect. I am conscious. Where does religious dogma fit here?

As Satan gives power he lines you up for disaster. The more power, the bigger the disaster. God doesn't dole out power because that would smack of favoritism and the traditions are already at logger-heads as to which is God's chosen. They can't all be right. In fact, the pride and imagined power over the others is typical Satan. Christianity has all those massive cathedrals, millions of priests, hundred of thousands of choir boys, billions in the bank... What happens if the Muslims luck out? There are going to be over a billion irate worshipers wanting their subscriptions back, not to mention the law-suits for Hail Mary's that were done instead of something fun like sex. All that misery and moping around for nothing. All those carcinogenic fumes, exposure to viruses, unwanted kids, life-sentence marriages, pointless Latin when English could have been used, homophobia, the little red book of rules, personal and embarrassing confessions to someone who hasn't a clue what you're talking about... Let's face it. The only good thing to come out was Sister Act. And the hawk that ate the pigeon released by the Pope.

What have the traditions achieved in a combined, what, 10,000 years? That, again, is Satan's gift giving. If God had granted power we would be far more advanced. 10,000 years and what have we got to show for it? Bleeding statues and a single mother with no life experience who's never worked a day in her life, squandering her son's fortune. (If Jesus had had it, he would have upgraded the donkey.) Satan must have tears rolling down his cheeks.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
You approach from a scientific point of view; God is not proven to exist unless one realizes you are God Aspect acting out Its WILL.

We might be using different definitions of the word "prove". Thankfully, science doesn't "prove" anything as much as look for the best explanation.

originally posted by: vethumanbeingFree will is environmentally causal and self will is God caused or the direct opposite of both?

Then only a god could have genuine free will? I don't disagree (only to the extent that there doesn't seem to be a god).

originally posted by: vethumanbeingI see a God aspect (creator being) coming into play with that diatribe.

That would be operating from an illusion on your behalf. It does the opposite. You might believe it needs a "creator/god aspect", but it doesn't. It's an added complication and resort to "magical thinking" .

originally posted by: [post=20173289]Of course its understood; a perspective observed from your idea form/person/individualized God aspect. I am conscious. Where does religious dogma fit here?

So you are saying that religious proponents don't cling to the notion of some god given "free will". Of course they do as well as the notion we have some paranormal substance known as a "soul". What would the acceptance that free will is an illusory effect and the result of many causal factors do to this?

originally posted by: Joecroft
a reply to: vethumanbeing

JC:That (first) post was more of a statement than a query…but Yeah, insightful is true enough…

vhb:
Then Self will inflicts its boomerang. What is your holiday drink of choice and will raise one to you; only if NOT isopropal "rubbing alcohol".

JC:I don’t normally drink, being Holy and blessed an all lol…but seeing as it’s you, and you’re in your Stapuff outfit, and with Christmas fast approaching, I will become like King Kong, so I can toast (reach) your beer with my own glass…
Guinness Cheers And…Merry Christmas- JC

OH THEN would be a Black and Tan; Guinness mixed with my favorite (Champagne) and would be perfect. Merry Christmas to you.

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

vhb: You approach from a scientific point of view; God is not proven to exist unless one realizes you are God Aspect acting out Its WILL.

Cogito,Ero Sum: We might be using different definitions of the word "prove". Thankfully, science doesn't "prove" anything as much as look for the best explanation.

Science is not the proving ground; this is based in faith (false science has no hinge pivot point or believed trusted).

vhb: Free will is environmentally causal and self will is God caused or the direct opposite of both?

originally posted by: vethumanbeingI see a God aspect (creator being) coming into play with that diatribe.

CES: That would be operating from an illusion on your behalf. It does the opposite. You might believe it needs a "creator/god aspect", but it doesn't. It's an added complication and resort to "magical thinking"

Eastern thought is mystical, Western is Magical.

vhb: Of course its understood; a perspective observed from your idea form/person/individualized God aspect. I am conscious. Where does religious dogma fit here?

CES: So you are saying that religious proponents don't cling to the notion of some god given "free will". Of course they do as well as the notion we have some paranormal substance known as a "soul". What would the acceptance that free will is an illusory effect and the result of many causal factors do to this?

This is Karmic appliance is all. Free will in not illusory, it acts in tandum with Self will.

originally posted by: vethumanbeing
Science is not the proving ground; this is based in faith (false science has no hinge pivot point or believed trusted).

As I said, science doesn't try to prove anything. That implies bias from the beginning.

You are welcome to your personal faith, yet its strange when people live in a society where scientific advances enhance their lives massively, yet ignore it or look down on it when it does not agree with their beliefs. Almost like they don't have the free will to do anything else...

Eastern thought is mystical, Western is Magical.

You seem to be promoting a corrupted magical/new age version of eastern philosophy anyway (genuine eastern philosophy is interesting).

This is Karmic appliance is all. Free will in not illusory, it acts in tandum with Self will.

Possibly. Yet pertaining to people we are finding more and more that the idea of free will is a very powerful and persistent illusion. That's the thing with illusions, not easy to pick. In essence, the idea runs so counter to experiments, observations and understanding of the natural world that it appears to require a form of "magic". Which is no problem if you believe in magic of course.

originally posted by: Cogito, Ergo Sum
originally posted by: vethumanbeing

vhb: is not the proving ground; this is based in faith (false science has no hinge pivot point or believed trusted).

CES: As I said, science doesn't try to prove anything. That implies bias from the beginning.
You are welcome to your personal faith, yet its strange when people live in a society where scientific advances enhance their lives massively, yet ignore it or look down on it when it does not agree with their beliefs. Almost like they don't have the free will to do anything else...

Personal faith; what does that mean exactly other than as you say a trust in a belief system?

vhb:
Eastern thought is mystical, Western is Magical.

CES: You seem to be promoting a corrupted magical/new age version of eastern philosophy anyway (genuine eastern philosophy is interesting).

Seem to be promoting corrupt magick? NOT at all (opposite).

vhb: This is Karmic appliance is all. Free will in not illusory, it acts in tandum with Self will.

CES: Possibly. Yet pertaining to people we are finding more and more that the idea of free will is a very powerful and persistent illusion. That's the thing with illusions, not easy to pick. In essence, the idea runs so counter to experiments, observations and understanding of the natural world that it appears to require a form of "magic". Which is no problem if you believe in magic of course.

Free will is powerful but is attached to self will. Free is God, Self is individualized. Are you God individualized? The natural world (as an ecosystem) is magical. We humans do not belong here within this system because we have no natural predator.

Reply to OP,

I think Satan gave you the power to post a couple of lines and get 6 pages of replies without you further elaborating on some of the good questioned posed early in the thread.


In the first 8 posts on page 1 replying to your thread there were questions asked which would make discussion unified and not what every Tom Dick and harry's beliefs are like what the rest of the thread is.

The second post by Augustus says it all from my point of view.

Have you had the same experience?

No.

I guess my soul isn't that valuable, I tried selling it to Satan for a bargain price.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

OK

Hitler is my main example...He nearly took over the world...when has God given a man the power to nearly take over the world. (I don't believe in Jesus)

If the world is as corrupt as some people here at ATS say then where are all the Government 'good guys'

Why is satan willing to give so much power?

Why is Santa willing to give away so many presents? Same reason: that's the way we wrote him.

originally posted by: gell1234
a reply to: InhaleExhale

OK Hitler is my main example...He nearly took over the world...when has God given a man the power to nearly take over the world. (I don't believe in Jesus). If the world is as corrupt as some people here at ATS say then where are all the Government 'good guys'

Look at world history (always as usual normal machinations) humans at war with one another; conquering others for whatever reason: spices, goods, enslavement of the natives, land take over. In the extreme? conquer the pagans with a dogmatic religious faith based belief system; frighten them into submission; bring on the horses. No Utopia, humans have illogical needs based in (EGO) that are greedy and without thought kill wantonly for that goal: TO GAIN occupation of territory. As a byproduct; disease.