In Flint, Mich., there’s so much lead in children’s blood that a state of emergency is declared

a reply to: mikell
It might have been there all along but with the different water treatment, the pipes that were held together because of a stable water supply are no longer able to do so because the water chemistry is different.

originally posted by: superman2012
a reply to: Boadicea
Is the water tainted? I must have read it wrong...

Okay. I must say I'm a little confused... how could you read the articles any other way?

I wonder if the cost of the water was taken into consideration?

Apparently, cost was the one and only consideration. The state-appointed Emergency Manager for the city decided their original source of water (the Detroit municipal water system) was too expensive, and switched to the river as their water source, which is when the problems began.

You can't win with the public. High water costs, they complain. Different water source with some growing pains, they complain.

Yeah, imagine that... people complaining that they're being poisoned... go figure! Most people would gladly be poisoned -- um, excuse me, let me rephrase that: Most people would gladly suffer a few "growing pains" if it saved them a few bucks, right?

I wonder why they decided to switch to a different water source...

Um, because the state-appointed Emergency Manager thought it would save a few bucks... But you knew that already, right? Just can't win when the public complains about a "few growing pains" and don't appreciate how much more important it is to save money than to save their health. Damn whiners the whole lot of them!

a reply to: Boadicea

Okay. I must say I'm a little confused... how could you read the articles any other way?

Because it wasn't tainted. It, being different source water, was stripping the pipes of the lead that is already there....
How did you read it?

Apparently, cost was the one and only consideration. The state-appointed Emergency Manager for the city decided their original source of water (the Detroit municipal water system) was too expensive, and switched to the river as their water source, which is when the problems began.

Granted, they should have taken into account their aging distribution system, but hindsight is always 20/20. Where was the uproar when this was proposed?

Yeah, imagine that... people complaining that they're being poisoned... go figure! Most people would gladly be poisoned -- um, excuse me, let me rephrase that: Most people would gladly suffer a few "growing pains" if it saved them a few bucks, right?

Of course they are going to complain now, who wouldn't!? The easily identifiable thing that people fail to see is that when you switch from old to new, there will be problems no one can foresee. It isn't that hard to figure out really. I never said people should be happy to be drinking lead tainted water, but where is it coming from? Households or the pipes in the distribution system? Again, it is VERY easy to look back at a problem and say, "Gee whiz! Why did they allow that to happen?".

Um, because the state-appointed Emergency Manager thought it would save a few bucks... But you knew that already, right? Just can't win when the public complains about a "few growing pains" and don't appreciate how much more important it is to save money than to save their health. Damn whiners the whole lot of them!

Again, hindsight is 20/20 and to pretend that a person is so high and mighty and all knowing by looking BACK at a problem is very pretentious.

Wiki link with more info. It's all about the money for Detroit

wiki Flint Water Line

I think some of you are missing the point.

It appears that runoff has caused the water source to become more corrosive. That water is not being treated properly and it's properties are causing the lead solder to corrode and enter the water.

No lead pipes. Just lead solder and there doesn't appear to be any lead in the actual water from the source.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Another article that says Detroit has a water additive that coats the inside of the pipes??? Really it coats waterlines but doesn't coat human insides?? $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

The Detroit News

a reply to: mikell

I stand corrected on the lead pipe issue.

Had not seen in my quick overview that there actually did have lead pipes.

Why defend this?

It is, and im being rather nice here.. totally & utterly unacceptable.

Starting to think it's not just Flint/Mich .. and not just the water. You've all been pacified.

Carry on, just a dumb low socio economic hovel... they wouldn't dare do this to YOU.
or should i say.. dare to tell you what's already been done over time with all the spills and accidents and other lovely stuff the water table has been corrupted with for profit.

"just a few IQ points" ... geeesh... the apathy.. it burns.

a reply to: superman2012

Because it wasn't tainted. It, being different source water, was stripping the pipes of the lead that is already there....
How did you read it?

You're really serious aren't you? Wow. I read it as various substances have tainted the city's water supply resulting in unclean water from the tap. Regardless of what substances and where these substances originated, the water coming from the tap is tainted. Period.

Granted, they should have taken into account their aging distribution system, but hindsight is always 20/20. Where was the uproar when this was proposed?

Right here, for starters:

But many residents, including Arthur Woodson, a former nuclear, biological and chemical specialist for the U.S. Army, are uneasy about waiting that long. On the day of the City Council vote to move away from using Flint River water, Woodson spent the entire afternoon calling various government agencies, trying to get answers on everything from whether there has been an increase in miscarriages in the area to how long before the federal government could go in and take control of the situation.

As he was working on the case, he heard from a water treatment plant worker that the city was looking to switch to drawing from the Flint River. “I went down to the City Council and said that it’s hard to treat river water and that there could be a [THM] issue, but no one listened,” Woodson recounted as he hunched over his telephone, on hold with the EPA.

And here:

During a contentious public meeting at a city library in late March...

And here:

On March 23, after months of protests, the City Council voted 7-1 on a resolution to do "all things necessary” to stop sourcing from the Flint River.

But seriously, you're going to blame the victims? The ones who had absolutely no choice in the decision to change water sources and who are now suffering because of one appointed bureaucrat's arbitrary decision? (And the residents didn't even get to save a few bucks for the privilege.... nope, their bills went up!)

Again, hindsight is 20/20 and to pretend that a person is so high and mighty and all knowing by looking BACK at a problem is very pretentious.

Do you make excuses for axe murderers too? To blame the victims for the arbitrary decision of one high and mighty and all knowing bureaucrat who failed to heed warnings is very pretentious.

originally posted by: Xarian6
Why defend this?

It is, and im being rather nice here.. totally & utterly unacceptable.

Starting to think it's not just Flint/Mich .. and not just the water. You've all been pacified.

Carry on, just a dumb low socio economic hovel... they wouldn't dare do this to YOU.
or should i say.. dare to tell you what's already been done over time with all the spills and accidents and other lovely stuff the water table has been corrupted with for profit.

"just a few IQ points" ... geeesh... the apathy.. it burns.

No defense here. They should fix this problem as soon as possible.

The only thing I was attempting to do, was to take the fear out and add a little dash of truth. Hindsight is 20/20.

a reply to: Boadicea

You're really serious aren't you? Wow. I read it as various substances have tainted the city's water supply resulting in unclean water from the tap. Regardless of what substances and where these substances originated, the water coming from the tap is tainted. Period.

My mistake. When you said:

Apparently just one person -- an Emergency Manager appointed by the state -- has/had all the power and is responsible for the decision to continue using the tainted water --

, in regards to the city water supply, I assumed you were talking about the actual supply. Not the "finished product". Sorry, I assumed you knew the difference.

So there was an uproar. After it was done. I meant before. Not after.

But seriously, you're going to blame the victims? The ones who had absolutely no choice in the decision to change water sources and who are now suffering because of one appointed bureaucrat's arbitrary decision? (And the residents didn't even get to save a few bucks for the privilege.... nope, their bills went up!)

Was I blaming them? I'm sure this was an overnight decision /sarcasm. People always wait until after there is a problem to complain. Why not get involved in the decision making process? Not saying that the dictator that decided to keep on going after a problem was realized is right. Don't confuse one for the other.

Do you make excuses for axe murderers too? To blame the victims for the arbitrary decision of one high and mighty and all knowing bureaucrat who failed to heed warnings is very pretentious.

Does one have to do anything with the other!? lol thanks for the laugh. Am I blaming the victims? No, I was making fun of internet warriors such as yourself that pretend to know all the answers by looking BACK at a problem. Very pretentious.

MY brother (and his kids) just moved out of flint last month. Luckily they have been using distilled water for years now...

I was born (and later institutionalized lol) In said Flint Hospital...

The crazy thing is that with all of this goin on water bills are something like $150 a month...for water they can't drink shower in or cook with. People have not been paying and now face shutoffs and all the penalties that go with that...

sad times. I knew the emergency manager was bad...unfortunately flint is awfully liberal and love themselves some gubberment....

a reply to: CraftBuilder
Oh ya! Facepalm, echoes of Rome all over agian. The only difference is that they did not know all that lead was bad for them most especially generational. And well! I am quite sure most 15 yr old are aware of that fact now, and so were the people who thought up of this brilliant idea.

# I did not know they were still using lead pipes there, that to may not be the best of ideas, but I suppose nobody wants to pony up the cash to change them all out. Who knows they were probably put in the 17hundreads or something, and yet they still charge them for such inferior product. Post people I know instinctively know not to drink the tap water, no matter what city your in.

Americans blames the world for unclean water.

They don't even check their own backyard until it is too late. Why else do western influenced countries have unclean water supplies?

We used to be able to drink from rivers and lakes until the Industrialization of the certain countries happened.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

What hasn't changed is that people still haven't figured out how poisonous governments can be.

The rumor is that someone is adding the lead. OK get it now! The water treatment plant has passed quality for the last 50 years and suddenly when they quit buying from DETROIT it fails inspection. I believe this spring the new water line will be in operation and the river water will be backup. The rivers as clean as it's ever going to get. It's on the east side sewer treatment and discharge back into the river is on the west. the river runs east to west all the industry is gone anyway.

It's all about the $$$$$$$

originally posted by: superman2012
a reply to: Boadicea

...I assumed you were talking about the actual supply. Not the "finished product". Sorry, I assumed you knew the difference.

Since I was speaking to culpability for the unhealthy water being supplied and harming folks as the "finished product," I have no idea why you assumed otherwise. I did not address the source of the contamination, I only addressed the one and only person responsible.

So there was an uproar. After it was done. I meant before. Not after.

There should have been no need for any uproar -- not before, not during, and not after. Do you know for a fact that there was no objection before the decision? Do you know for a fact that the citizens were even aware of the plan before the decision? Or are you assuming again? One person is responsible for this mess, and it's not the victims who had no choice in the matter -- not before, not during, and not after.

Was I blaming them?

Yes, you not only did blame them, you still blame them:

People always wait until after there is a problem to complain. Why not get involved in the decision making process?

You must be assuming again. What exactly should anyone be complaining about before there's a problem? One cannot complain about a problem they do not know of... one cannot get involved in the decision making process of an arbitrary dictator. Do you know how much time and/or opportunity the citizens had to even be aware of the plan? Do you know how much time and/or opportunity the citizens had to understand the dangers it would involve? Do you really believe the people knew their water would be poisoned, make them sick, and they just did and said nothing until after it was a done deed? Of course not.

Not saying that the dictator that decided to keep on going after a problem was realized is right. Don't confuse one for the other.

Nothing to confuse since you said nothing about the one and only person with the power and responsibility to make this problem AND fix this problem. You made yourself very clear.

lol thanks for the laugh.

So funny... why am I not surprised?

Am I blaming the victims? No, I was making fun of internet warriors such as yourself that pretend to know all the answers by looking BACK at a problem. Very pretentious.

There you go again... assuming and all that... or just making stuff up out of thin air. I'm pretending to know all the answers? Hahaha! I never claimed to know all the whys and wherefores of how their water was tainted. I simply pointed out the one and only person responsible for the problem -- and I wasn't even addressing you. You chose to address me and turned it all around on the victims. However, you are correct to the extent that in so doing I did address the real root of the problem, the state-appointed Emergency Manager, Jerry Ambrose.... oh wait! Hmmm.... is that you, Jerry Junior??? Are you trying to protect your daddy from the consequences of his dangerous decision? Or am I assuming too much?

a reply to: Boadicea

Since I was speaking to culpability for the unhealthy water being supplied and harming folks as the "finished product," I have no idea why you assumed otherwise. I did not address the source of the contamination, I only addressed the one and only person responsible.

Your bolding of the supply comment in your quote on your post made me think you were talking about the supply water. If you want to backpedal that's fine by me.

There should have been no need for any uproar -- not before, not during, and not after. Do you know for a fact that there was no objection before the decision? Do you know for a fact that the citizens were even aware of the plan before the decision? Or are you assuming again? One person is responsible for this mess, and it's not the victims who had no choice in the matter -- not before, not during, and not after.

I am aware that there were proposals put out...if people don't want to take the time to get involved and do a little bit of light reading when it is given to them, that's on them. As I said, I'm not blaming the people of Flint. What I am doing is pointing out that with a little bit of critical thinking and caring about their community BEFORE things go to hell would help them out in the long run. As I also said before though, hindsight is 20/20.

You must be assuming again. What exactly should anyone be complaining about before there's a problem? One cannot complain about a problem they do not know of... one cannot get involved in the decision making process of an arbitrary dictator. Do you know how much time and/or opportunity the citizens had to even be aware of the plan? Do you know how much time and/or opportunity the citizens had to understand the dangers it would involve? Do you really believe the people knew their water would be poisoned, make them sick, and they just did and said nothing until after it was a done deed? Of course not.

I never said they should complain before something happened. lol. I said they should be involved in the decision making if they cared. People don't care until there is a problem. We are wired funny that way. Do I agree with one person making all the decisions? No. As I have previously stated. Do you know any of the answers to your questions or are you just assuming that they didn't know? Works both ways sport.

So funny... why am I not surprised?

Glad to see you found the humour in it as well.

There you go again... assuming and all that... or just making stuff up out of thin air. I'm pretending to know all the answers? Hahaha! I never claimed to know all the whys and wherefores of how their water was tainted. I simply pointed out the one and only person responsible for the problem -- and I wasn't even addressing you. You chose to address me and turned it all around on the victims. However, you are correct to the extent that in so doing I did address the real root of the problem, the state-appointed Emergency Manager, Jerry Ambrose.... oh wait! Hmmm.... is that you, Jerry Junior??? Are you trying to protect your daddy from the consequences of his dangerous decision? Or am I assuming too much?

Assuming and all that? Where did you happen upon that educated answer? I would be willing to bet that you don't work in any field that has anything to do with the problems associated with this towns water. It is very telling, as you don't understand the difference between water supply, and supplied water.
Jerry Ambrose Jr.? Trying to protect my daddy? Is this how you are going to make your point? By making baseless allegations? It is extremely doubtful as I do know my father and I don't live in that country (thank God).

originally posted by: CraftBuilder
Many believe that lead poisoning brought down the Roman Empire.

Lead poisoning brings down most empires. Sometimes you drink it, sometimes it's in a bullet, sometimes it's in a sword.

a reply to: TrueBrit

Clearly, they wanted to drum up long term business for their health care industry. Just think of the economic stimulus in that.