A History of Socialism in America

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

How does this quote address you saying there is mandatory indoctrination?

Dewey may have been part of the system at one point but does that really mean that every single school follows that thought process?

ETA: You think you can find the where those quotes actually came from btw?
This guy tried, he couldn't find it.
www.notnews.org...

blackhistory.com...

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
Corporations don't pay taxes. Taxes are an expense that becomes part of the cost of doing business. So in order to turn a profit, taxes require a higher selling price.

Consumers pay corporate taxes, not corporations.

Right...

Very interesting read: 8 Ridiculous Tax Loopholes: How Companies Are Avoiding the Tax Man

originally posted by: Semicollegiate
A small government has specific duties. It can be strong when it sticks to those specific duties.

Russia is none of our business. If they live wrong they will go bankrupt in a free market.

So, how is that different from what we have today??

Somehow your response just does not make any sense, please try again...

if russia is none of our business, then why did we spend so much money to ensure that Ukraine swayed over to the european union instead of honoring their ties with russia?

or building up the resistance in afghanistan a few decades ago for that matter?

matter of fact, I would venture to guess that if we paid more attention to our own business and got our noses out of everyone else's business, we'd have more than enough money to ensure that everyone in the us had a roof over their heads and food on their table and still have money left over to give the taxpayers a cut.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

How does this quote address you saying there is mandatory indoctrination?

Dewey may have been part of the system at one point but does that really mean that every single school follows that thought process?

ETA: You think you can find the where those quotes actually came from btw?
This guy tried, he couldn't find it.
www.notnews.org...

That is the syllabus and you can try to keep your kids home if you need a demonstration of the mandatory nature of it.

a reply to: greencmp

It really isn't though.

Care to actually try and find when he actually said those words? He has plenty of writings, I can't seem to track it down.

And it still doesn't show mandatory anything. The state doesn't mandate that you go through the public school system.
Cost of what it takes to go private is not the fault of the state.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

It really isn't though.

Care to actually try and find when he actually said those words? He has plenty of writings, I can't seem to track it down.

And it still doesn't show mandatory anything. The state doesn't mandate that you go through the public school system.
Cost of what it takes to go private is not the fault of the state.

Do you fundamentally disagree with the spirit of those statements?

a reply to: Semicollegiate

That is just another person quoting it, that doesn't prove he said it.
I can find that all over, but no one wants to source where it came from.

By all means find the origin of the quote, no one else quoting it will.

a reply to: greencmp

Yes, and I don't think Hewey said them.

Individual thought is necessary.

Feel free to show the origins of them by Dewey, not just some website repeating it.

originally posted by: Cabin

originally posted by: greencmp

originally posted by: CharlieSpeirs
a reply to: DBCowboy

What individual liberties and rights have you lost?

Patriot Act? Ok, but that's nothing to do with the economic process of Socialism.
Gun restrictions? Same again. Nothing to do with Socialism.
Free Speech Zones? Once again I'll agree that's a Liberty lost, but not much to do with economics and Socialism.

That'd be an interesting thread.

The best example would be "public education".

The mandatory indoctrination of children into a state-run education system represents the pinnacle of manifest socialist policy and is an absolute requirement on the road to serfdom.

I do not agree with you in that . I have acquired my education from one of the top education systems in the world. In addition to couple of grades in another top education system.

I am familiar with different education systems and generally speaking, so far, what I have noticed, what differentiates the top nations (in Europe) , is the fact that private education / homeschooling is near to inexistent. In my nation for example, which is among top education systems in the world, private schools are not even able to compete with public schools.

All in all, I believe that public education systems should not focus on competition, but rather equality in addition to providing extra opportunities for top students. The problem with private schools is the fact they create inequality by grabbing the best teachers out there.

Another aspect lies in role of teacher. For example, in Finland, the competition for becoming a teacher is higher than competition for any other field. Only the top students can become teachers.

Altogether, I believe that everything comes down to execution. Public school system without private schools is best for everyone in society as even smart kids from poor families get high quality education with top teachers.

Besides the chills I get when I hear education referred to as a quantifiable commodity rather than an unending process, the mere fact that, in your own words, private education is practically non-existent in Europe belies the objectiveness of your declaration.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

Yes, and I don't think Hewey said them.

Individual thought is necessary.

Feel free to show the origins of them by Dewey, not just some website repeating it.

I'm glad to hear that.



I know for certain, from experience, that many proponents of institutionalized education do not.

a reply to: greencmp

And I know for certain, from personal experience that many wouldn't agree with these statements.

Also, do you not mind that no one that repeats them will source the origin of them?

Critical thinking would want you know where they came from right?

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

And I know for certain, from personal experience that many wouldn't agree with these statements.

Also, do you not mind that no one that repeats them will source the origin of them?

Critical thinking would want you know where they came from right?

I did choose many rather than most. I don't believe that most people actually comprehend the pernicious nature of indoctrinasiums.

originally posted by: SuperFrog

originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: Krazysh0t

I have a problem with a system in which roughly 47% of society lives off the earnings of the other 53%. I have no issue paying for taxes which go towards infrastructure, education*, police, etc. because I use those and feel ANYONE who uses them should be paying equally into them...

I would really love to see where did you get those numbers from... I mean, we all heard about 150 richest people having more money than half of human kind, but never heard about 47-53.

What I find fascinating is that the same people who support small government tend to agree with political side that closes its eyes in law loophole that corporations are using to avoid taxes... and I never remember any of them objecting about that, including their news platform - FOX, while they really hard try to find people living on social and eating lobster?! (everyone remember that

)

Real hypocrisy is when those same people are in church praying to the guy who by all standard was socialist and tried to teach people to take care of others...

And can someone please take time and explain to me what means tiny/small government - is that government that Russia can deal with easier?? I seem to be lost in meaning of this, as something that makes our country superpower and great is taken as something wrong and bad?!

BTW, had no idea we have history subforum - about time!!!

The CBO (congressional budget office) publishes the data of the tax payer distribution. Feel free to peruse the site, but there are tables that show that 47% of population pay zero taxes and the bottom actually get money back. Almost all the federal tax burden in the US is carried by the top 5% of wage earners.

CBO Distribution of Household Income & Taxes

The progressive meme that the wealthy don't pay their fair share in taxes is a bunch of horsesh*t. It is only logical that the top 1% have most of the wealth as they earn most of the money. There is nothing controversial about that statistic.

Corporations don't really pay taxes. That burden is typically passed on to the consumer through higher prices or they will look to reduce their costs through more efficient operations (i.e., firing people, using technology, changing locations, etc).

a reply to: greencmp

I just want to know if you care that no one will source the origin of those quotes.
Especially since you seem to be basing your entire point on them.

I don't believe that most people actually comprehend the pernicious nature of indoctrinasiums.

I would agree.
We have people that turn a blind eye to religion and focus on schools and scream indoctrination.
Not saying that is you.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

I just want to know if you care that no one will source the origin of those quotes.
Especially since you seem to be basing your entire point on them.

I don't believe that most people actually comprehend the pernicious nature of indoctrinasiums.

I would agree.
We have people that turn a blind eye to religion and focus on schools and scream indoctrination.
Not saying that is you.

You make the common mistake of conflating voluntary participation with mandatory participation.

a reply to: greencmp

Well you have yet to answer my question on how public school education is mandatory.
There is private and homeschooling options.
Also my point wasn't about it being mandatory,that is your strawman, just that if we want to talk about indoctrination, churches HAVE to be part of that. And I mean all religions.

Why are you dodging my question about where the quotes you quoted came from???

I don't want to assume you don't care if quotes are falsely attributed to someone as a some sort of appeal to authority but I can't help but do so if you don't answer the question.
You used them to make your point, I can find nothing on them coming from the man you said they came from.
And I mean the origins of him saying it, not just another website saying he did.

Public education works well if you are fortunate enough to live in an area with relatively high incomes. The problem is poorer areas have so many other social problems that the school systems are basically worthless as the school has to play social worker as well as teach. This usually means very little teaching gets done.

The public school system has turned into a jobs program for the teachers union beholden to Democrats and they aren't held accountable for poor results. Democrats rather see poor kids go to crappy schools than upset their voter base.

originally posted by: Sremmos80
a reply to: greencmp

Well you have yet to answer my question on how public school education is mandatory.
There is private and homeschooling options.
Also my point wasn't about it being mandatory,that is your strawman, just that if we want to talk about indoctrination, churches HAVE to be part of that. And I mean all religions.

Why are you dodging my question about where the quotes you quoted came from???

I don't want to assume you don't care if quotes are falsely attributed to someone as a some sort of appeal to authority but I can't help but do so if you don't answer the question.
You used them to make your point, I can find nothing on them coming from the man you said they came from.
And I mean the origins of him saying it, not just another website saying he did.

Petty but, unsurprising.

I just went and searched for this whole string encapsulated in quotes:

"The children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society that is coming, where everyone would be interdependent."

Google has over 5 pages of results and I went through attempting to find a source you would find acceptable.

Many books and references were available, I assume that none satisfy your undeclared parameters for validity.

Might I suggest that you peruse those results for yourself?

a reply to: greencmp

In my eyes, education up to certain point /certain age can be measurable. PISA is not rocket-science exercises, but basic math, reading and sciences. If a 15 year-old kid does not understand what an interest rate is or can not read well, there is a difference... Unfortunately vast majority of those who are unable to understand such basics at the age of 15 do not do well at life having to live end-to-end, often in debt. Some do well, but majority of such end up at some low-end job.


Education as a whole is a life-long process. The fact that one has education, does not mean he/she is educated and the opposite. Although I do believe kids should be given as strong horizon as possible, giving them access to all kinds of basic fields, so they would know where to go next. If one has no or very little experience with a field, they can make very wrong career choices in life, being unsatisfied, trying to find their call. High school for example is not about giving some practical advice for life. It is about giving basics how the world works not skills on what to do something. After that an 19 yo can do their own choices, what next.


So far in life, I have noticed, vast majority who went to vocal schools at the age of 17, chose the wrong field for themselves. Either they ended up at another field or just do the job they dislike so far. From my highschool year, majority already understood what they wanted from life or at least chose the right field.


About private school, Europe has too many nations who have different systems. The ones with higher private school rate usually dont do well. Public schools systems here give a variety of options, whether science-based, music, economical, language class etc, but every one of them just focuses on one field, while giving a glimpse of everything else.

Parents are not the ones to choose the field from their kids. Every child is different, has different interests. In the end, when someone dictates you what to learn, what to do in life, one just ends up miserable. Giving a glimpse of everything at first and then letting to choose oneself is the right thing in my eyes. In the end one needs to find the job they love, not just make a living on some field they dislike.

a reply to: greencmp

Yes I went through those, and you found what I did, just more people repeating it but not showing where it came from.
Just websites and a couple books written by people that are not Hewey.

It is not being petty at all, the petty thing is acting like I wouldn't accept something so you don't bother posting.
Post what you found. It is not my job to prove the negative, but for you to prove that he did say it.
Though I already posted one source of a guy looking for it and then sourcing actual writings of the man that fly in the face of the quotes that you put out.